Today's battle in classrooms: Resegregation

[DZHBrown]

Vouchers only help the wealthy if they are given to everyone. Many of the voucher programs, however, are restricted to low-income families.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Rudey
By the way vouchers only would help the wealthy and educated - the kind of folk who know their children will have more opportunities if they study and stay involved with their children.

That's only true if the voucher amount is minimal, like a few thousand dollars. In NYC, the public education system spends, on average, over $12,000/student. If there was a $12,000 voucher, all would benefit, mostly the disadvantaged.

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by 33girl
And if you need to travel too far - I'm sorry, but I don't think that having to transport a 6 year old an hour one way every morning and every night contributes to his learning or his general health, no matter how damn good the school is when he gets there.

It's purely anecdotal, but I had a 45 minute commute each way every day because the schools in my neck of the woods didn't have programs for gifted/accelerated students. I would have been bored and unchallenged if I'd stayed in those schools, and G*d only knows what my life might've turned out like if I hadn't.

I think in some ways that the fight against vouchers is a middle-class luxury, meaning that middle-class people with access to better public or private education have the option of choice. If you ask families who live in underprivileged areas whether they'd like the chance to send their kids to better, safer schools where they'd get a better education, I'd wager that a majority would jump at the chance.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
If you ask families who live in underprivileged areas whether they'd like the chance to send their kids to better, safer schools where they'd get a better education, I'd wager that a majority would jump at the chance.

If I remember correctly, working class African-Americans are the group that most strongly supports vouchers.

[Kevin]

This is a great program. As someone who generally speaking does not believe in new government programs, I think this is a great idea.

Here in Oklahoma, we have some amazing wastes of public money on schools. For example, in the vast majority of school districts, the superintendant is over only ONE school! We have over 500 school districts in this state. Superintendants draw 6 figure salaries and also have a staff that supports them.

That's just one example of how our tax dollars are in many cases wasted here. In Oklahoma, our teacher pay ranks either 49th or 50th in the US (can't remember which). Some of our school districts are failing. The Oklahoma City Public Schools are a nightmare. They are indeed segregated -- very few white kids attend these schools. Another problem is that in recent past, a bill was passed (a one-penny sales tax) that was supposed to refurbish our OKC schools. Politicians decided that instead, they were going to use a large chunk of that money to build a Bass Pro Shops store (yes, public money). Well, at least there's a place where our illiterate graduates can get $7.00/hr jobs.

Essentially, anyone who can afford it has their kids in a private or catholic school -- I drove 30-45 minutes two ways every day to attend a Catholic School because my parents are fairly well-to-do. I was lucky. Unfortunately, many of these kids are not so lucky -- most of them minorities.

Probably the most ironic thing about this is politically speaking the Dems are considered to be the "Party of minorities". In this instance, I think they are just taking the minority votes for granted. This is something that could *REALLY* help to level the playing field when it comes to being socioeconomically deprived and stuck in a bad educational system. The Dems were forced to choose between their constituents, the NEA (which donates $) and minorities, which I'm inferring either don't mean as much financially, or they are just being taken for granted.

Much of what I hear from minorities as far as complaints about inequality sound like whining. However, when it comes to schools, if a kid wants to have a good education, they should be afforded that opportunity! To stick them in a failing school and let them wither on the vine is cruel, unfair and sick. If they and their parents want to choose to use those vouchers to attend a religious school, fine. Catholic schools (and others) offer pretty damned good educations.

[Phasad1913]

Much of what I hear from minorities as far as complaints about inequality sound like whining.

Spoken like a true non-minority.

[AGDee]

I do not agree with voucher systems as I've seen them proposed here in Michigan. It didn't pass, but it wasn't going to be only available to the lower income families, they were going to be available to anybody. If they were equal in value to what the school district gets per student, then a family would still have to kick in $5000-$10,000 per year for private school tuition. They would also have to have the means to transport the child to the other school. All it would really do, the way it was proposed in Michigan, is take money away from the public schools and allow the upper level income families to get a big break on their private school tuition.

I also disapprove of being able to use tax dollars to support religious schools.

Our focus needs to be on improving the public schools so that all children truly get an equal shot at a good education AND on improving their neighborhoods (fighting crime, poverty, etc) so that other social issues that impair their ability to learn are eliminated or significantly reduced.

I do think that parental involvement and the parents values relating to education play a huge part in a child's success in school no matter what school district they are in and I don't know how you change that. Detroit Public Schools have a whole lot of problems but they also have some spectacular schools for the academically and artistically gifted. It would be a shame for those programs to deteriorate because the district gets less funding. Although there have been a lot of corrupt administrators who have misspent funds, that needs to be addressed and changed, not ignored with a plan to just get kids out of the district.

Dee

[Phasad1913]

Our focus needs to be on improving the public schools so that all children truly get an equal shot at a good education AND on improving their neighborhoods (fighting crime, poverty, etc) so that other social issues that impair their ability to learn are eliminated or significantly reduced.

There ya go! I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by ktsnake

Much of what I hear from minorities as far as complaints about inequality sound like whining. However, when it comes to schools, if a kid wants to have a good education, they should be afforded that opportunity! To stick them in a failing school and let them wither on the vine is cruel, unfair and sick. If they and their parents want to choose to use those vouchers to attend a religious school, fine. Catholic schools (and others) offer pretty damned good educations.

So, a member of a minority group can't complain about inequality without being whiny? Why can't schools be improved instead of giving up on them with voucher programs?

I guess I, being a member of a minority group who went to one of the best public high schools in the state, a school that currently has alumni enrolled in each Ivy, MIT, Chicago, Stanford, Georgetown and Caltech--can't complain about how my less fortunate cousins don't have the access to the same education. They don't have that access because of the neighborhood I grew up in and the differences in what our fathers did for a living.

Basically, everyone--regardless of socioeconomic status--should have access to a quality public education. It should be our top priority. Instead, due to certain attitudes, we're just as segregated in some ways as before Brown v. Board.

[mrblonde]

Its not as simple as that. If someone offered me the choice between putting my children in a better school TOMORROW, and promising to 'improve' (the vaguest of terms) the public schools we have now so that theyll provide better education probably 5 years, maybe 3 years, no sooner than 2, I wouldnt hesitate to choose the former. Im not at all opposed to having a plan to make education better, but Im not sure if Id be willing to give up the option to do the best for my children ASAP.

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Well if a school is considered failing, maybe they should look at the teachers instead of handing out vouchers.

as a teacher who worked in a "failing" school for 2 years, i have to say it is not necessarily the teachers' faults. (it possibly could be in some cases though)

in most failling schools, you have single parents who work who either can't or don't work with their children at home. the children usually have less structure and support from home than the kids in passing schools. so a teacher can teach to the best of her ability, but if the parents either can't, don't or refuse to work with their kids at home, those kids won't succeed as much. that leads to lower standardized test scores which leads directly to failing schools.

i now work in a school where the parents are extremely supportive, as well as wealthy, and the differences in the strides the kids make with encouragement from home is astounding.

[Taualumna]

I know that some areas allow kids to attend any public school in the city providing that the out of area school has space. The only issue for this is transportation, which of course, can be pricey. There is a program in Toronto called Pathways to Education (http://www.pathewaystoeducation.ca) where kids from a low-income area get bus/subway tickets for attendance (in school..there is no high school in the area where this program is.). It's a great program, and the Junior League here is teaming up with them. Some of the ladies will be mentors to Grade 12 girls this September. Should be great

[AGDee]

As a single mom, I'm feeling a little defensive but, I do want to point out that there other factors. I work with my kids, as does my ex and we have emphasized that school is the top priority for the kids. I'm very involved in the school, in close communication with their teachers, etc. But, I agree that there are far more factors than the ability of the teachers. If children aren't getting nutritious meals, if they aren't getting enough sleep, if they are dealing with emotional stressors (fear of drive by shootings, drug dealers and prostitutes on every corner to and from school), if their homes don't have heat or hot water or electricity, they definitely aren't in good shape to learn. Parental involvement is also key, but not all single parents drop the ball on this. In general, parents who are not educated, dropped out, etc. aren't placing as much importance on school either. It's not the teachers in most cases.

Dee

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by AGDee
In general, parents who are not educated, dropped out, etc. aren't placing as much importance on school either. It's not the teachers in most cases.

Dee

That is true, unfortunately. They just released elementary school rankings in Ontario, and the kids that scored the lowest were from lower income homes where the parents were not as well educated. Many of these schools are in rural areas, more than in urban areas.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
That's only true if the voucher amount is minimal, like a few thousand dollars. In NYC, the public education system spends, on average, over $12,000/student. If there was a $12,000 voucher, all would benefit, mostly the disadvantaged.

The poor are not going to make education their priority. The poor schools will be filled with poor students with poor education until they get an education that is BETTER than someone that is rich to even put them on par.

I don't care if the voucher is for a million dollars, the parents that will care enough about their kid's education will not be the poor and they will not move their children to those other schools. In the meantime, those public schools were there were even a few parents that cared with some good students will become awful schools where no student or parent cares. So all you've done is expand the class divide and create a bunch of criminals that will break into my summer home and try and kill me.

-Rudey