This Is Interesting

[adpiucf]

This speaks volumes about the need to prepare PNMS and new members for the ritual. It's not just a set of grips, whistles and words. It's the basic principles of the organization. Had this member been given a better indication of what to expect, he would not have chosen this org.

[fingerbang]

i go to SDSU and am actually quite good friends with the president of Sig Ep, the chapter that we are discussing. Although i dont think that i know the kid by name, im sure i would recognize him if i saw him. from what i understand, i may be wrong, he felt pressured into taking part in the ritual of his chapter. Being a fellow president, i know that if someone ever came to me and said they felt uncomfortable with the ritual, i would not pressure or try to convine someone otherwise. we all join fraternities for our own reasons, and even though many are religious based, many people do join for other reasons, and not agreeing with the ritual should not be something that turns you away from the chapter. The sig eps here at state are a great group of guys with a clean track record, and im sure if this guy approached their president, he would have been more than happy to make his brother feel more comfortable. By suing the chapter, he not only brings unwanted attention to a group of guys im sure he still has some feelings for, but makes the whole thing look like a stupid ploy to get some money.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by adpiucf
This speaks volumes about the need to prepare PNMS and new members for the ritual. It's not just a set of grips, whistles and words. It's the basic principles of the organization. Had this member been given a better indication of what to expect, he would not have chosen this org.

I would agree if the person is a NIB. However, this person had 2.5 years experience as an active under his belt. He knew what the ritual look like and knew what it involved. Ignorance is not even in the equation for this person. It looks more like he is incompentence and are trying to pass the blame for his shortcomming on something else.

[PsychTau]

Fingerbang,

I'm going out on a limb and speculating here.....but maybe the "pressure" came from the fact that it's his job as VP-P to read from the bible during ritual. So maybe it came down to him not doing his job and if he didn't want to do the job, then he didn't need to be the VP-P. If he approached anyone in the chapter about it, that might have been the first thing they said, which he's now calling "forced" and "pressure".

Seems like they could have worked something out, but neither he nor the president mentioned that they tried to, so it probably didn't happen. Life lesson for him....don't think people can read your mind. You gotta speak up.

I don't see how they successfully forced him to participate in ritual when he could have resigned his VP position at any time, or just not attend ritual (which he apparently did that). I think the threat of "physical violence" is trumped up or blown out of proportion.

That's just my speculation...
PsychTau

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by fingerbang
we all join fraternities for our own reasons, and even though many are religious based, many people do join for other reasons, and not agreeing with the ritual should not be something that turns you away from the chapter.

I would really have to disagree. I do understand that people join GLOs for many reasons... but ritual is what my sorority is about. If a non-Christian woman was to join Phi Mu, she could adapt it in her own mind to conform more closely to her own religious beliefs. But if she completely disagreed with it and refused to participate... I would not want her in my chapter. What's the point, really?

[PM_Mama00]

I'm gona have to agree with my sister here. We have many different religions in my chapter and they come to our ritual with no problems. If there is something that they don't feel comfortable saying or doing because of their religion, we understand. Our current president has no religion but that hasn't stopped her from loving our ritual and being a good president.

Sometimes you just gota work things out.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
I would really have to disagree. I do understand that people join GLOs for many reasons... but ritual is what my sorority is about. If a non-Christian woman was to join Phi Mu, she could adapt it in her own mind to conform more closely to her own religious beliefs. But if she completely disagreed with it and refused to participate... I would not want her in my chapter. What's the point, really?

But in order for this to be true, I think we would need to make our rituals public.

You can't really say, "Don't join my organization if you don't agree with the principles that it was founded upon . . . but I can't tell what those principles are until after you join."

As Kath said earlier, in many cases there are clues, but you can't make assumptions. I didn't realize how common religion in ritual was until a while after my initiation. There are a lot of students who join sororities or fraternities without even understanding that they involve ritual at all!

I think that, generally speaking, we must either:
1) make it more clear that our rituals do involve Christianity or religious references or Judaism or whatever your particular ritual involves -- many national websites, pledge manuals, etc. downplay this because they don't want to scare off potential rushees
2) offer a modified non-religious version of the ritual for those who object
or 3) accept that these kinds of things will happen and that we will probably lose some potential members (or, like in this case, initiated members) because of it.

Anyway, as for this particular case . . . I wonder what Sig Ep's national stance on this is? I.e., do they offer a modified religion-light ritual for those who request it? I don't think that this guy was particularly wrong to join the fraternity when he didn't agree with the religious nature of the rituals, but I have to agree with those of you who questioned why he ran for VP Programming if he knew he wouldn't be able to perform all the duties that office requires? Isn't that kind of like, I don't know, having a VP Finance who doesn't know how to add and subtract?

[sigep533]

Originally posted by Attractive#7
Everyone has their right to what they believe in. As brothers of the fraternity, I'm sure they would have worked something out with him though. I agree that with his founders being divinity students and the statement about God on their website, he should have known. I don't say or stand for the pledge of alligence, but my chapter knows that and they know why. If that ever comes up they know I stay seated, those are my beliefs and they respect that. If he had such a problem, he should have discussed it with the chapter and I'm sure they could have worked something out...someone else could have done his parts in rituals.

The dude is a dumbass..

[Taualumna]

But is saying that our ritual may have religious conotations really bringing any secrets out? In any case, most organizations founded in the late 19th and early 20th century would probably have some religious aspects to it even if they claim not to.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Taualumna
But is saying that our ritual may have religious conotations really bringing any secrets out? In any case, most organizations founded in the late 19th and early 20th century would probably have some religious aspects to it even if they claim not to.

Personally I think it's kind of shady if ANY organization is saying "We don't have religious references in our ritual" when in reality they do, but that's just me. Fortunately I don't think I've seen that happen yet . . . the closest thing is when people refuse to comment on whether or not the ritual involves religion.

All I'm saying is that it's not exactly fair to say, "You can't join our GLO unless you agree with our ritual, but we aren't going to tell you what you're agreeing to until after you've joined." That doesn't make sense to anyone. And I'm not just talking about religion, although I think that seems to come under fire the most because not all of our members are religious while our other principles tend to be things that people usually strive for anyway (friendship, knowledge, truth, beauty, etc.). Let's say your organization's principles are brotherhood and knowledge -- you can reasonably assume that nobody in your fraternity is going to object to those principles because, generally, somebody who's joining a frat is going to be into the brotherhood thing and HOPEFULLY somebody who's in college is going to have at least a basic degree of respect for knowledge and education. However, if your organization was founded to promote brotherhood, knowledge and the love of chocolate chip cookies, you've got to realize that there are probably some people, though not many, who don't love chocolate chip cookies. And if you don't TELL your potential members that they have to love chocolate chip cookies to join your GLO until they've started pledging (or worse yet, in the middle of initiation) -- well, that's not exactly fair.

I think the problem is that too many GLOs are afraid to mention religious overtones in ritual because they're afraid they'll scare people off. I'm not sure about fraternities, but check out the NPC sorority websites. Some will mention their religious roots, but how many mention the religious content of their ritual? Or more accurately, how many mention the religious content of their ritual prominently? Do most of our chapters talk about that during rush? I'm sure there are many chapters out there who don't even discuss it during the pledge period, so that girls are surprised when all of sudden their ritual chair starts talking about Jesus's love for humanity in the middle of initiation.

Basically, I think that if the religion is an important part of your GLO's ritual, you need to make that apparent to rushees and pledges. It's almost as if some organizations are trying to trick non-religious (or non-Christian) members into joining by not mentioning the importance of religion or faith until they're already in the middle of initiation, or just before. We either need to make it clear that religion IS an important part of some of our organizations before these people join and that if they disagree with that, they'd best go somewhere else . . . or we need to cater to them and offer modified non-Christian/non-religious rituals. It's not fair to hit them with the "Surprise! JESUS LOVES YOU AND YOU MUST LOVE JESUS . . . or else!" thing after they've already made a commitment to your organization.

[Tom Earp]

While I can only talk about miy Ritual, well of course I wont! Is it Historically Related to many things from the members or Founders of LXA so were most.

While I am just guessing, most if not All Greeks were based on Religious Precepts and rightly so from The Members. who Founded ezch of us!

Remember also, there were some Greek Organizations that were Founded for the Jewish Faith, but to day, they are changed and accept anyone one as most Christian based Organizations do!

Idiot, well I dont know, dumb, now tht is another thing!

[James]

Kappa Sigma is very clear. Unless you profess a belief in a higher power you can't join. Pure and simple.

Which means you either have to tuly beilieve it, or at least go along with it.

I would very surpised if others groups don't pre-clear their people in the same way.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
But in order for this to be true, I think we would need to make our rituals public.

You can't really say, "Don't join my organization if you don't agree with the principles that it was founded upon . . . but I can't tell what those principles are until after you join."

As Kath said earlier, in many cases there are clues, but you can't make assumptions. I didn't realize how common religion in ritual was until a while after my initiation. There are a lot of students who join sororities or fraternities without even understanding that they involve ritual at all!

I think that, generally speaking, we must either:
1) make it more clear that our rituals do involve Christianity or religious references or Judaism or whatever your particular ritual involves -- many national websites, pledge manuals, etc. downplay this because they don't want to scare off potential rushees
2) offer a modified non-religious version of the ritual for those who object
or 3) accept that these kinds of things will happen and that we will probably lose some potential members (or, like in this case, initiated members) because of it.

I mostly agree with you. I would never, ever consider #2 to be acceptable (although I cannot speak for all of Phi Mu). But I feel that we cover our bases in #1, and I can't imagine that others don't! Before pledging AND Initiation, I (as the New Mem. Educator) ask our Phis if they feel comfortable placing their hand on a Bible and making references to God. Although I do not want to let them know what our ritual is, I don't see a problem with letting them know that it is religious with a Christian slant.

I think it would be inappropriate to talk about those types of things during Recruitment, but I think the dicussion should have a definite place in the new member period, particularly before they are initiated. If we are going to lose new members, I'd rather lose them BEFORE Initiation, then afterward in a situation like this.

[phimuandfries]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
Before pledging AND Initiation, I (as the New Mem. Educator) ask our Phis if they feel comfortable placing their hand on a Bible and making references to God.

I remember our ritual chair asking us those questions, but none of us had a problem so we went on as scheduled. But what happens when somebody says "Yes, I do have a problem"? im just curious

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by phimuandfries
I remember our ritual chair asking us those questions, but none of us had a problem so we went on as scheduled. But what happens when somebody says "Yes, I do have a problem"? im just curious

Wow... I don't know. It's never happened to me either. I guess if it happened with one of my Phis, I would clarify exactly what she had a problem with and try to come up with a solution. If it was a problem with the hand on the Bible, we could probably do something to remedy the situation and keep going. But if it was a problem with the total references to God or religion... I would probably get a little more specific with her in private about what would be expected, and tell her she would have to decide whether or not she wanted to continue. Honestly, I would have difficulty encouraging someone who did not believe in God AT ALL to continue and be initiated into Phi Mu... especially considering we have a formal ritual meeting once a month. It's not something you can skip or get around or avoid until Initiation time.