The sanctity of marriage

[Rudey]

About money?

So people get divorced because they don't enjoy free money. In fact they hate money so much they're willing to pay on top of it to end marriages. Heck the rich marry when they have more than enough money...why? How come you don't just tie the knot with a friend for the tax breaks already james? None of you have to even see each other...you'll just enjoy the monetary benefits.

Valkyrie why do you want to get married? It's not about money obviously. You said it's because it's something nice to do...it's nice to have a piece of paper? Is it fitting in with the norm? I guess I don't understand that.

Marriage is an institution of family - plain and simple. To be fair I strongly believe in shutting down all the Vegas chapels that "cater" in marriage. I don't find the logic in couples getting married who don't even want children. So it's not just a gay vs. straight issue.

The only time I've felt scared of being around gays was in a gay bar in roscoe and only because I didn't know it was a gay bar and couldn't figure out why everyone was a guy and so many of them had their shirts off. Religiously I find it wrong and immoral to have it within my community but that is my belief and, whether or not you like it, you should respect that opinion.

-Rudey

Originally posted by James
Marriage is an economic union for the purpose of rasiing children. Anthropologically.

Shared assets shared labor etc.

Religiously its a whole different thing. . well not really but it has more mystical importance. However, at the end of the day, its still a union for the purpose of having kids.

The state has defined marriage over the years outside its religious meanings.

So the question is whether marriage is entirely secular and and is just an odd form of corporation either to raise kids or just pool assets.

In this case, it should be possible to have group marriages also because it could easily be argued that the combined assets of a group environment would exceed the assets of a nuclear family when it comes to raising kids.

As far as gays go . . . Marriage the way a lot of people are arguing it will be up to the individual churches. The state just has to make a dterminant on what the point of marriage is.

And don't think that the state has gotten involved in marriages out of respect for love. ITs money.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by Rudey
Valkyrie why do you want to get married? It's not about money obviously. You said it's because it's something nice to do...it's nice to have a piece of paper? Is it fitting in with the norm? I guess I don't understand that.

I don't give a rat's ass about fitting in with the norm (I'm sure that's hard to believe!) but I guess I can't really explain why I might like to get married at some point. My opinion on the issue changes all the time, and right now I'm leaning more in favor of NOT getting married because I don't really think it's any of the government's damn business to define my relationship -- however, I like the idea of having health insurance even though I'm not employed and I also like the idea of my potential spouse being able to visit me in the hospital if something happens to me -- don't they often refuse to let "non family" in to see you?

I go back and forth on it all the time, really.

[justamom]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I don't give a rat's ass about fitting in with the norm (I'm sure that's hard to believe!) [/B]

(REALLY?!?!?)

... however, I like the idea of having health insurance even though I'm not employed and I also like the idea of my potential spouse being able to visit me in the hospital if something happens to me -- don't they often refuse to let "non family" in to see you?

I go back and forth on it all the time, really.

For me, part of the reason I oppose the word "Marriage" is because in my faith, it is a Sacrament-holy and bestowing special graces upon those who receive it. Is it the same for other religions?

I agree though, that within a "union" all benefits like insurance-visitation rights- tax breaks should be equal. I'm a little squeamish about adoption. I thought Rosy O'Donald made a beautiful case for it though. Jury is still out on that one!

[Kevin]

The way I see it is that people are getting really hung up on a word: marriage. It means different things to different people. For some, it's a holy sacrament and sacred. For others, it's a contract between two people that involves a property sharing arrangement, financial issues, issues of insurance benefits, etc. In my mind, it's not one or the other, it's sometimes one, sometimes the other and sometimes both.

In the government's case, they can't tell the church what is and isn't a marriage. Just because the government may decide that gay marriage is permissable, it won't require churches to perform or recognize gay marriages. Didja know that the Catholic church already doesn't recognize marriages that aren't held in the Catholic Church? My folks had to get married twice -- once in a courtroom, and again several years later when they decided they wanted to raise their kids in the church. The priest told them that they weren't considered married until they went through with it.

In my opinion, it's arrogant as hell to force your own definition of marriage onto someone else's life. Especially if your concept is founded in religion. Marriage by the government and marriage by the Church can be and in fact are two different things! In a poll recently held by the Washington Times, interviewing about 1200 folks, they found that a slight majority actually supported civil unions. While the majority of folks still disapprove of calling it "marriage".

Homosexual behavior is against my moral code. I also believe that there are folks out there who really can't help themselves. Whether it's psychological or something in their DNA, they are, and always will be gay. If you'd have partied with all the musical theater people that I did (and still sometimes do) it'd be tough to come to any other conclusion.

So we're getting hung up over a word. If two gay people love eachother and want to enjoy the same financial benefits as two straight people who get married get to have, I can't really find a problem with it. Even if the government says it's okay, they can't force the church to recognize it and conduct said ceremonies. So I guess I just can't anything wrong with it.

[justamom]

ktsnake-I basically agree with your entire post. The exception does evolve around terminology. I honestly don't know what is "wrong" specifically, but it just seems like terminology becomes very important, legally, sooner or later.

Maybe part is wanting to retain the distinction between that which is condoned through religion and that which is condoned through the courts. There is an effort to diminish, by legal means, the role "faith" plays in our lives, from The Pledge of Allegiance to removing monuments like the Ten Commandments. I think, as a person of faith, I prefer to see the distinction made. Is it the "rights" people are seeking or is it a way for everyone to be indoctrinated into the erosion of the part religion plays in this country? I see a bigger picture here.
BTW- I happen to believe that God would not judge any "union" based on love and respect. I know that flies in the face of many religions.

[James]

Yes the state gets invovled with marriage because of economic issues.

Originally posted by Rudey
About money?

So people get divorced because they don't enjoy free money. In fact they hate money so much they're willing to pay on top of it to end marriages. Heck the rich marry when they have more than enough money...why? How come you don't just tie the knot with a friend for the tax breaks already james? None of you have to even see each other...you'll just enjoy the monetary benefits.

Valkyrie why do you want to get married? It's not about money obviously. You said it's because it's something nice to do...it's nice to have a piece of paper? Is it fitting in with the norm? I guess I don't understand that.

Marriage is an institution of family - plain and simple. To be fair I strongly believe in shutting down all the Vegas chapels that "cater" in marriage. I don't find the logic in couples getting married who don't even want children. So it's not just a gay vs. straight issue.

The only time I've felt scared of being around gays was in a gay bar in roscoe and only because I didn't know it was a gay bar and couldn't figure out why everyone was a guy and so many of them had their shirts off. Religiously I find it wrong and immoral to have it within my community but that is my belief and, whether or not you like it, you should respect that opinion.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by James
Yes the state gets invovled with marriage because of economic issues.

So you'll ignore what I wrote and throw in a one-liner? OK check this one out:

The state doesn't get involved with marriage just for economic issues.

-Rudey

[James]

I didn't know we were arguing actually, thats the only place we substantially seem to disagree.

Marriage is a union for having kids. I don't see the point of getting married if you don't want them . . although i know there is a certain neurotic validation to marrriage as well as economic perks.

Originally posted by Rudey
So you'll ignore what I wrote and throw in a one-liner? OK check this one out:

The state doesn't get involved with marriage just for economic issues.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by James
I didn't know we were arguing actually, thats the only place we substantially seem to disagree.

Marriage is a union for having kids. I don't see the point of getting married if you don't want them . . although i know there is a certain neurotic validation to marrriage as well as economic perks.

I didn't argue with you and I don't see this as a matter of opinion. When you can figure out why people hate free money then we should talk because i want to find these idiots and take them for all their worth.

-Rudey

[33girl]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I also like the idea of my potential spouse being able to visit me in the hospital if something happens to me -- don't they often refuse to let "non family" in to see you?

I must be used to a less restrictive hospital, because I've gone into ICUs to visit people and no one ever asked if I was family.

I often see things like this used as a reason for legalizing gay marriage. I have big news, there are LOTS of people who have broken ties with their biological family and don't want them to inherit their $$, see them in the hospital, make plug-pulling decisions etc. Gay or straight there are lots of people nowadays who do not want their bio family making those decisions. I think that's entirely another matter and one that needs to be addressed (and very very soon) without tying it all up with gay marriage.

[swissmiss04]

I think (if I'm not mistaken) that even if you are not related by blood or marriage to someone you can still grant them power of attorney to make decisions like pulling the plug. When my parents first decided to split immediately they both assigned p.o.a. to me so that the other one didn't have it anymore. I believe that as long as you are considered mentally competent, then you can have it assigned to anyone. Someone back me up on this?

[valkyrie]

This thread actually has me thinking, and I've been trying to find a good list of the benefits of marriage that isn't put out by some ultra-conservative group. Here's one from this site:

-Insurance benefits through a spouses employer
-Insurance discounts offered to married couples and related persons living in same household
-Government benefits such as Social Security and Medicare
-Veterans/military benefits offered to spouses (education, medical care, housing loans)
-Income tax deductions, credits and exemptions
-Tax relief for natural disaster losses
-Immigration of foreign partners
-Witness and court testimony rights
-Continuation of lease rights (renewal of lease)
-Community property rights
-Inheritance rights
-Payment of wages for deceased partners and workers compensation benefits
-Right to enter into pre-marital agreement
-Automatic rights of survivorship
-Consent to post-mortem examination
-Right to make burial arrangements
-Bereavement leave for partner, child, or partner's close relative
-Family leave to care for partner or child during illness
-Right to make decisions in medical emergencies ( "next of kin")
-Visitation rights for partner or child in hospital or other public institutions
-Custodial rights for a seriously injured partner
-Right to file a wrongful death suit
-Tuition discounts/use of facilities
-Company benefits/perks offered to spouses
-Commercial discounts/incentives offered only to married couples or families
-Joint child custody, adoption and foster care rights
-Equitable divison of property, child custody, visitation rights and support in the case of divorce
-The right to obtain domestic violence protection orders

Many of these benefits could be obtained in other ways -- you don't need the inheritance rights if you have a will, for example, and I'm pretty sure you could set up a power of attorney to give your partner the ability to make medical decisions for you.

Doesn't the importance of marriage come, most of the time, from religion? If you're not religious, why is marriage important even if you do plan to have children? What's the real point of it?

[NinjaPoodle]

Originally posted by James

And don't think that the state has gotten involved in marriages out of respect for love. ITs money.

BINGO

[norcalchick]

some people may get married for economical purposes like valkyrie posted. i just don't think it's right for someone to tell someone else that they can't marry thier loved one. i would be mad as hell if people told me i couldn't marry whoever i wanted to marry. i don't mind gay couples, if they aren't bothering me, it's fine. i think the gay couples that do want to get married, or whatever, trully love eachother. if people are saying it's against the sanctity of marriage, what about all these "reality t.v." shows about people getting married. some of them are fake marriages like "my big, fat obnoxious fiance" or whatever it's called. or people that go and get married, and two weeks later want to get it annulled. i just don't think it's right. if they're happy together, then more power to them.

[AlethiaSi]

Originally posted by norcalchick
i just don't think it's right for someone to tell someone else that they can't marry thier loved one]

i completely agree.... its NOT right... i think that its amazing that people run around trying to tell other people what they can and can not do.... we have enough issues in this world... just because YOU think its not right... then all the sudden other people have to believe it too?


(i'm not attacking anyone on this board- this is what i believe... i would be a complete hypocrite if i said that this is the way all people should think.... i don't think that everyone should have my beliefs... we have one of me in this world- we don't need a bunch more )