Day Care

[Rudey]

I'd bust out the pepper spray. Little Johnny Doe would go down.

-Rudey

Originally posted by AGDee
Ok, hypothetical situation here... (and I worked on child and adolescent inpatient psych units for many years so I have seen this type of behavior first hand).

Little Johnny Doe is 4 years old and is throwing a temper tantrum. He is throwing blocks all over the room. He has been redirected and told to take a time out, but he does not comply. There are 25 other kids in the room and he's throwing these blocks really hard. Then he starts biting himself. What do you do?

Or, two kids are locked in a fight and you have to get them separated. No amount of verbal redirection is working. What do you do?

Granted, this was a psychiatric hospital but we were trained in methods of restraint, approved by the mental health department because these methods would not injure the child (or the staff). They included approaching the child from behind, securing his arms, crossed in front of him, elbows locked so his arms wouldn't be injured and leaning back slightly to put him off balance. You would sometimes have to hold this child in this position until he calmed down while talking to them in a calm and reassuring voice (and neurologically, this position slows the Central Nervous System and helps them calm down). Sometimes, to protect the child, or other children, you have to gently restrain them.

They can't just let kids run wild and endanger themselves or others. The typical child would NEVER need this type of behavior managment, but I would think that legally, they need to point out that they have a right ( even an obligation?) to do this. If Johnny Doe beat the crap out of your child because the staff weren't allowed to put hands on him, you'd be pretty upset.

Dee

ETA: I still listen to everything my children tell me, and then continue to question them to find out the whole truth. Usually, with my son, I get "Well he hit me first". Then I ask "What were you doing to annoy him?", because he doesn't tell the whole story right away, ever. Part of it is knowing your own child. I know I can't take what he says at face value, but I also know how to get the whole story out of him. More than once he has come running to me to say "Daddy hit me" and I clarify "He spanked you? On the butt? With his hand?", he nods and I say "Why?" and he tells me what he did wrong. That's what I take to be the meaning of that statement.

[mullet81]

who put's a P.S. on a contract?!? That sounds so unprofessional.
And - What kind of lawyer (b/c i would assume anyone making a contract would have a lawyer look over it before having clients sign it) would allow such as statement on the contract.

I know I would NEVER allow my kids at a place that has that on their contract!

[Rudey]

Originally posted by mullet81
who put's a P.S. on a contract?!? That sounds so unprofessional.
And - What kind of lawyer (b/c i would assume anyone making a contract would have a lawyer look over it before having clients sign it) would allow such as statement on the contract.

I know I would NEVER allow my kids at a place that has that on their contract!

You will if I threaten to suplex you.

-Rudey

[CutiePie2000]

Originally posted by adduncan
Go with your gut - it's the one part of you that never lies.

You said it, sister!

[midwesterngirl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AGDee
[B]Ok, hypothetical situation here... (and I worked on child and adolescent inpatient psych units for many years so I have seen this type of behavior first hand).

Little Johnny Doe is 4 years old and is throwing a temper tantrum. He is throwing blocks all over the room. He has been redirected and told to take a time out, but he does not comply. There are 25 other kids in the room and he's throwing these blocks really hard. Then he starts biting himself. What do you do?

Or, two kids are locked in a fight and you have to get them separated. No amount of verbal redirection is working. What do you do?

Granted, this was a psychiatric hospital but we were trained in methods of restraint, approved by the mental health department because these methods would not injure the child (or the staff). They included approaching the child from behind, securing his arms, crossed in front of him, elbows locked so his arms wouldn't be injured and leaning back slightly to put him off balance. You would sometimes have to hold this child in this position until he calmed down while talking to them in a calm and reassuring voice (and neurologically, this position slows the Central Nervous System and helps them calm down). Sometimes, to protect the child, or other children, you have to gently restrain them.

They can't just let kids run wild and endanger themselves or others. The typical child would NEVER need this type of behavior managment, but I would think that legally, they need to point out that they have a right ( even an obligation?) to do this. If Johnny Doe beat the crap out of your child because the staff weren't allowed to put hands on him, you'd be pretty upset.

Dee


While I personally agree sometimes you might need it,according to the regulations of the state of Kansas,any sort of disciplinary restraint is a violation and one of the most serious at that.We could lose any state funding we get or even worse,be closed down completely.For some facilities,a good portion of their income is state funded families and the loss of that is devastating.Believe it or not some facilities are so PC that they don't even tell children no any more.They just redirect.We are not one of them.We have no problem telling a child no. That is ridiculous.
In the times when I and my staff have had to seperate a fistfight,we generally put ourselves in the middle of the two combatants.That way we are not touching them and they do stop because they know better than to hit an adult.I don't care what they do to their parents but they won't be physically violent with my staff.We tell the parents straight out,if your child is violent,they are gone from the facility.It seems everything comes down to being a liability issue.On both sides.That is why we won't tolerate it.We don't want to put other children and our license at risk.
As a side note,I think the not telling the kids no,affects other areas as well.My drivers tell me that they see kids on other daycare vans out of their seats and jumping around and being ridiculous.Our kids would get one warning,in front of their parents and if it happens again,they will find another way to transport their child.It isn't worth the risk.

[AGDee]

My only serious injury at work ever was when diving between two teenage girls who were seriously fighting with each other. One of the punches (intended for the other girl) landed on my jaw and dislocated it. Not fun!

I don't want to give the impression that I'm all for physical punishment or anything, because I'm not. But, it's definitely true that a child can't be kicked out of day care until after they've done some harm to someone or something! I suspect that the day care would be held liable if they didn't stop a kid's dangerous behavior also. They are in a Catch 22.

I also don't think it's very professional to put that statement at the bottom of a legal contract. But, many day care providers aren't rocket scientists either. I wouldn't blame a parent for refusing to sign that contract, but I think it's poor judgment, not necessarily a sign that a child would be unsafe there.

Not telling kids no? That's just raising a very scary generation! Life is full of 'no' and they better get used to it!

Dee

[DigitalAngel126]

I must admit, when I first read the P.S. my snap judgement was "Okay, so you're saying that if my kid comes home and tells me you beat him, I shoudln't believe him?". Whether it's a joke or not, like I've been saying, it's still in poor taste.

The main reason I question the restraint thing, other than I woudln't want anyone else disciplining my child to that extent, is because of my job. I know a nursing home isn't similar to a day care, but even at work we can't legally restrain someone as far as 'tying' them down or anything like that. We can't even put up a siderail on a bed without a dr's order because legally it's a restraint too. We coudln't put a vertical exstention on the footboard of a bed to keep someone from crawling out & falling, even with a dr's order, because it's also a restraint. Things of that nature that we're not allowed to do are because of state laws. That said, I don't know if it's a "No restraint, period." type of law or a Dept of Health/Nursing Home thing. I ought to look into it.

[Tippiechick]

Originally posted by AGDee
But, many day care providers aren't rocket scientists either.
Dee

I am sorry, but this is one of the most insulting things I have ever read on here...

[AGDee]

I didn't mean it to be an insult, but after years of having my own kids in day care, the majority of the workers I encountered made minimum wage and had no education. There would usually be one director who was educated in child care. I think this is a problem with our day care system that needs to be improved. In several places that I visited in choosing one, the staff used poor grammar, had poor hygiene, were screaming at children, etc. Many home day cares aren't licensed. That's why parents shop around. The one my kids ended up in was full of warm, educated staff. At least one staff in each room had a degree in early childhood education and the other staff were great too. But, that's why you shop around. I had to shop around to many facilities though.

I think it's sad that it is so difficult to find a good day care .. this should be a higher priority in our society and if they paid more, they would get higher quality workers. There ARE some good ones out there too. I didn't mean to offend.

Dee

[midwesterngirl]

Laws differ from state to state.I am beginning to think Kansas may be more stringent than others though.Here the Director has to have at least a 4 year degree and the Asst has to have at least the equivelant of an Associates degree.Also full and part time staff have to have a certain amount of outside child care requirements.Throughout the year the state offers various classes and attendance is required for a certain amount of hours to retain employment.They do check.Also the state requires a background check (KBI) on all incoming employee.My facility is privately owned and I am happy to say that our turnover rate is very very low.We also,like Dee mentioned,pay more than minimum wage and it makes all the difference.

[TigerLilly]

What some people were saying with their hypothetical child restraint systems sounds like something that happened at the daycare where I worked last summer. There were a few children that were just problem children and we had to use what I guess you would call "light restraints" to keep them safe or from hurting other kids.
One 3-year-old girl decided one day that she did not want to be there, so she decided to run out of the room and try to go out the front door. She kept doing it, and we had to grab her and hang onto her as she was fighting us trying to run out the door. What were we supposed to do, let her run out into the parking lot? The teacher in her room just held onto her on her lap until she calmed down.
This same girl, who was still in diapers during naptime, one time did a BM during nap. After nap, she utterly refused to let anyone change her diaper. Pitched a fit. Well, we couldn't really leave her in a dirty diaper, could we? So we had to try to hold her down on the changing table, me trying to hang on to her while the other teacher tried to change the diaper. Have you ever tried to keep a wiggling tantrum-having 3-year-old still while someone is trying to change/clean her? It's not fun, lemme tell ya. I guess you could call what I did holding on to her "light restraint", since I was restraining her from getting away...
Then there was a 4-year-old boy who liked to throw things and hit other kids. One time he started pitching a fit and hitting everyone he could, so we tried to send him for time out and he wouldn't stay in the time out corner, came running out and started hitting people again. Even hit me, the teacher. I got a nice bruise on my cheek from him but of course I had to be very careful not to bruise him by hanging on to him. Again, what were we supposed to do, let him go beta up the other 10 kids in the room? I don't think so.
All in all, I think the daycare where I worked was very good and handled things well. It's just in a few extreme cases where this stuff might actually be necessary. It's all about discretion and using your judgement about keeping the child safe without actually hurting him.

BTW I just thought of something else, writing this message. It seems like for a lot of places (like that daycare, my kindergarten class, etc), where kids get sent for time out is the reading corner. Probably b/c it's more isolated from the rest of the room, and because it has pillows in case the kid is pitching a fit, but that seems like it would make kids associate reading with punishment. You're bad? Go to the reading corner! Does this seem like a bad thing to anyone? Maybe that's why more kids don't like to read...

I just recently took my son out of daycare because he gets sicker then the normal amt of times a kid should be sick in a yr.

As far as the statement on the paperwork goes i would be running to CPS and not stopping til i got there. That sounds verrrrrrrry bad

[AXO_MOM_3]

I have a small company making id cards for kids and daycare staff (have not done much with it in the past two years...but that is another story!). Since I was not a parent, I really got to see the centers and staff as they really were. Out of all the centers I visited, I can only name about three that I would actually put my children in. Some tips:
--Make sure the center is licensed, ask to see reports. If they don't provide, the state should be able to provide a rating. Most states require daycares to be inspected and rated just like a restaurant every six months or so. Ask if they provide workshops or training opportunities for the staff.
--Show up unexpectedly periodically just to see what the place looks like at various times of the day. I know some places cleaned up just for parents, especially prospective parents. Is it always cluttered and messy, or does it seem fairly clean and organized? Any place that children play is going to be somewhat messy, but good daycares will keep this in check.
--Eat lunch with your child one day to see how sanitary everything is. (Do they have the children wash their hands before they eat? How do they prepare food/clean up utensils etc.)
--Observe the workers there - do they interact well with the children, or is it just a paycheck? Of course they all won't have college degrees, but what led them to working in a daycare? I've seen daycare workers being really rude, short and mean to children in a few places.
--Does your child dread going, or look forward to it? Some children do have a difficult time going in the morning (separation anxiety) but do they end up having a good time, or still hate it at the end of the day, every day?
--Ask your kids open ended questions...who did you play with today? What did you play with? Did you get to play outside or did you stay inside all day? ETC. With younger children this is harder, but you can still get some pretty good info out of two - three year olds if you ask the right questions.
--Lots of daycares claim daily "activities" such as art, music, etc. Ask for a calendar and make sure to ask your child questions about it. On art day, ask about it...did you paint a picture...On music day...can you sing me the song you learned today? Did you get to play an instrument?
--Do the staff appear to have "favorite" children that they dote on? If so, make sure yours is not getting ignored in the process.

There are some wonderful daycares out there, both big and small. I hope this will help some of you get an idea of the ones that are really great, and the ones with just a pretty face and an empty shell.