Gang violence: Why care?

[kafromTN]

posted by abaici:
"You were in the "hood" for 30 seconds and were offered drugs. Hmmm. That's interesting. LOL"

in regards to ktsnake's comments:
"Within about 30 seconds, I'd had a rock of crack offered to me (at least I think that's what it was), been hit up for $5.00 by some guy that had "just gotten out of prison" and essentially had to flee the scene because about 12 people were coming up on my car pretty fast."

I'm from the Memphis area and yes I can definitely believe it, there are some very nice areas and there are some areas you don't go to, even during daylight hours.

-Mark
Just letting everyone know, I don't think ktsnake is exagerating.[spelling?]

[Kevin]

Originally posted by abaici
***Sigh*** I grew up in an inner-city neighborhood. I lived in the same neighborhood from the time that I was born until I left home to attend undergrad. In all of that time, I was never offered crack. You were in the "hood" for 30 seconds and were offered drugs. Hmmm. That's interesting. LOL


Oh, to answer the question... Well, I guess the families of the innocent children who are killed every year might care.

Honestly, not 100% sure what it was. It was a rock of something. I don't really know what different drugs look like. Not an expert on that stuff.

All I can say is never pull off at 4:30AM on the first exit heading East past downtown Memphis

It could be because my friends and I resembled the usual clientelle? White, middle class looking 20-somethings in an SUV?

Not sure if you're questioning the veracity of my story or just amused at my luck.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by CC1GC
With ever-increasing social disparity, nothing can be done to alleviate poverty in any society. The difference between a 5% difference of a rich-poor gap is a greater number of ghettos.

note to ktsnake: i'm gonna start calling you Contradiction Kevin

..you brushed upon the 'costs of society' for incarceration et al. I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but there are numberical sociological studies linking economic benefits to the prison system in the U.S. In fact, i read upon one that attributed a 5% reduction in unemployment overall because of the jobs created from Crime - and i ain't talking about white collar.

One last point (and sorry for the redundancy), you suggested to ship off 'ghetto children' to boarding schools where i geuss they can learn how to function in society? Ummm if you knew anything about rehabilitation on any level, it is a far greater cost to society than anyother method.

I don't claim to have all the answers.

I don't even claim to have any of the answers

All I can tell you is that the present system and circumstances only perpetuate the situation.

I'm sure that studies do show that the economy in some areas is positively effected by the industry of policing and incarcerating people. However, all the money to support those activities comes from government spending. Government spending comes from taxes -- money that is siphoned out of the economy in the first place. If there's less government spending, there's more private spending. The money doesn't go into a hole. My heart goes out to the prison guards and police officers that would be left without a job. Fortunately, the problem cannot be solved overnight, so if there was a decrease in such jobs it wouldn't be a sudden thing.

DHS needs more authority to get kids out of bad situations, drugs should be legalized (but controlled) and help should be given to people that want it (education, job skills, not free money).

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Can you please just stop talking to me? Yeah thanks 59 year old college boy.

Nobody has posted a good enough answer. Someone who lives in communities with gangs won't have much influence, wealth, political privileges - ie the system won't move to change it because as innocent as they are, they're not important. Cold.

-Rudey
--Think.

Look despite the common misconception gangs do not only inhabit the ghettos of cities, they have members and operations everywhere that they have an interest. If it is just a simple street gang that confines itself to a couple of blocks, then I can see your arguement.... but those gangs are far and few between now (well at least in Toronto).

Most gangs seem to be organized along ethnic and criminal activity, not on their socio-economic background (again using Toronto example). Currently the crime of choice for some gangs up here is home invasions, protection (old stand by), prostitution (an older stand by), drugs, and rent'in (guns, vehicles, or muscle for crimes). A couple of years ago they were also into the home-grow pot operations, but organized crime has pretty much pushed them out now.

But my comment about "what makes you think their killing each other?" was meant to make you and others think. Gang rivals rarely call each other up to arange a nice deserted spot to settle their differences. Instead we see the drive-by, coffee shop attacks, or an ambush.... all commited by people that aquired their knowledge of gun play from watching movies.... so people other than the intended target are hit, and some die. There have been cases where a shooter has used a high-caliber pistol, and the round has gone through walls and struck "innocent people" a block or more away. Two years ago I can remember walking home from the bus after a party and hearing something like "fireworks" coming from an apartment, only it was some guy firing an AK-47 at another apartment building to make a "hit", only a couple of people were wounded, including two cops, but it could easily have been worse. The thing is gang hits are made when and where the target has supposedly let their guard down: at home, at the coffee shop, at the club, at a party, at Caribana, at a concert, at the mall, at school, or anywhere else they think they are safe.... all of these have many non-gang members around and as potential "innocent by-standers".

Now Rudey before you go spouting off about me talking about things I don't know or understand I guess I'll have to back myself up now. First personal experience, sure I live in a great neighborhood, with big old houses, but if I walk a couple of blocks I enter some of the more run down housing and apartments in Toronto; there has been shootings, stabbings, murders, drug-dealing, prostitution, and even a couple of cops shot (one killed). You learn to identify the gang's tag marks, and what each is roughly into (hell I went to school with some of these guys), and for the most part they stick to "playing" with each other..... but the secondary sources of income rely on "innocent" people: muggings, home invasions, break and enter, car-jackings, hold-ups, or the black-market... all of which can quickly escalate and result in a dead body. Now for professional information: three of the guys on my men's hockey team are party of the gang task-force that the Toronto Police force has, and after games at the bar work often comes up; usually after a story has hit the papers. The biggest thing is keeping track of which gang is in which rank: 1st- official affiliation with organized crime (big money and support), 2nd- un-official affiliation with organized crime (sort-of like calling up the minors), 3rd- major street gang (more than 100 members, estimated annual income over 4 million), 4th- street gang (around 50 members, no real big money scores, but has a lot of weight in their area), 5th minor street gang (about a dozen or so members, minor crimes for the most part, usually associated with one of the higher ranked gangs). For the most part the maimings and killings are the work of the 3rd-5th ranked gangs, but it may be instigated by one of the upper-ranked gangs or organized crime, because all of these gangs are inter-related to varying degrees.

[PM_Mama00]

What you're talking about sounds more like the Mafia.

Gangs in Detroit are more about drugs, selling and buying, and as far as I know are only into each other-- as in sticking to the violence between themselves. We don't hear much on the news about gang action, which makes me believe more that they only stick with themselves.

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
What you're talking about sounds more like the Mafia.

Not really. Mafia (or Organized Crime) is able to thrive partly due to gangs. Gangs are very public - the Mafia is not. People in certain communities willl know who is in organized crime, but it's not as advertised. The police have to focus on Gang violence because it is a large public risk - letting organized crime more leeway to run.

I'm still amazed how open about the word Mafia we are. Two generations ago - you didn't dare utter the name. (I'm half Italian and my grandmother still doesn't like talk of it in her house)

[Rudey]

Seriously you never make any sense. Those people don't have power, and, hence, don't "matter."

-Rudey
--You still don't know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by RACooper

Look despite the common misconception gangs do not only inhabit the ghettos of cities, they have members and operations everywhere that they have an interest. If it is just a simple street gang that confines itself to a couple of blocks, then I can see your arguement.... but those gangs are far and few between now (well at least in Toronto).

Most gangs seem to be organized along ethnic and criminal activity, not on their socio-economic background (again using Toronto example). Currently the crime of choice for some gangs up here is home invasions, protection (old stand by), prostitution (an older stand by), drugs, and rent'in (guns, vehicles, or muscle for crimes). A couple of years ago they were also into the home-grow pot operations, but organized crime has pretty much pushed them out now.

But my comment about "what makes you think their killing each other?" was meant to make you and others think. Gang rivals rarely call each other up to arange a nice deserted spot to settle their differences. Instead we see the drive-by, coffee shop attacks, or an ambush.... all commited by people that aquired their knowledge of gun play from watching movies.... so people other than the intended target are hit, and some die. There have been cases where a shooter has used a high-caliber pistol, and the round has gone through walls and struck "innocent people" a block or more away. Two years ago I can remember walking home from the bus after a party and hearing something like "fireworks" coming from an apartment, only it was some guy firing an AK-47 at another apartment building to make a "hit", only a couple of people were wounded, including two cops, but it could easily have been worse. The thing is gang hits are made when and where the target has supposedly let their guard down: at home, at the coffee shop, at the club, at a party, at Caribana, at a concert, at the mall, at school, or anywhere else they think they are safe.... all of these have many non-gang members around and as potential "innocent by-standers".

Now Rudey before you go spouting off about me talking about things I don't know or understand I guess I'll have to back myself up now. First personal experience, sure I live in a great neighborhood, with big old houses, but if I walk a couple of blocks I enter some of the more run down housing and apartments in Toronto; there has been shootings, stabbings, murders, drug-dealing, prostitution, and even a couple of cops shot (one killed). You learn to identify the gang's tag marks, and what each is roughly into (hell I went to school with some of these guys), and for the most part they stick to "playing" with each other..... but the secondary sources of income rely on "innocent" people: muggings, home invasions, break and enter, car-jackings, hold-ups, or the black-market... all of which can quickly escalate and result in a dead body. Now for professional information: three of the guys on my men's hockey team are party of the gang task-force that the Toronto Police force has, and after games at the bar work often comes up; usually after a story has hit the papers. The biggest thing is keeping track of which gang is in which rank: 1st- official affiliation with organized crime (big money and support), 2nd- un-official affiliation with organized crime (sort-of like calling up the minors), 3rd- major street gang (more than 100 members, estimated annual income over 4 million), 4th- street gang (around 50 members, no real big money scores, but has a lot of weight in their area), 5th minor street gang (about a dozen or so members, minor crimes for the most part, usually associated with one of the higher ranked gangs). For the most part the maimings and killings are the work of the 3rd-5th ranked gangs, but it may be instigated by one of the upper-ranked gangs or organized crime, because all of these gangs are inter-related to varying degrees.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by kappaloo

I'm still amazed how open about the word Mafia we are. Two generations ago - you didn't dare utter the name. (I'm half Italian and my grandmother still doesn't like talk of it in her house)

I guess it's just different wherever you go.

I'm first generation Sicilian-American, and my whole family jokes about being in the mafia all the time. I'm sure my uncle has served some in his restaurant.

Not that the Mafia is a joke.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by abaici
***Sigh*** I grew up in an inner-city neighborhood. I lived in the same neighborhood from the time that I was born until I left home to attend undergrad. In all of that time, I was never offered crack. You were in the "hood" for 30 seconds and were offered drugs. Hmmm. That's interesting. LOL

I have the "pleasure" of driving through some pretty shady areas around my campus on a regular basis. For those of you who don't know, Marquette is boarded by a freeway on two sides and a bad neighborhood on the other two. I drive alone at night, I walk alone at night, I go to shady gas stations alone at night, and the worst that happens is that people ASK me for money (not hold me up) or ask for my phone number. I don't know what on earth you were doing in Memphis, but I've got a good friend who lives there and hasn't been offered anything in the year he's lived there. The only time I've ever been offered drugs is by the son of a Fortune 500 exec at a high school party. Something to think about...

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I guess it's just different wherever you go.

I'm first generation Sicilian-American, and my whole family jokes about being in the mafia all the time. I'm sure my uncle has served some in his restaurant.

Not that the Mafia is a joke.

Before we went to Sicily, we were instructed NOT to talk about the Mafia at all, but were reminded that we would see the impact they have had on the island.

I guess as outsiders, they really did not want us to talk about something we had no idea about...it is different when it's your people.

As for gang violence, I have even less experience in urban settings (ever seen The Truman Show? That's where I live...really.) than most of you who are posting. I would like to think that positive influences within a community could stop this, but I'm not so sure.

The only times I have ever been offered drugs were at waterfront homes and at my Ivy League undergrad. Bwa ha ha.

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00
I guess it's just different wherever you go.

I'm first generation Sicilian-American, and my whole family jokes about being in the mafia all the time. I'm sure my uncle has served some in his restaurant.

Not that the Mafia is a joke.

But that's a new phenominom (sp?). 40 years ago in Italia you wouldn't dare mention it.

Btw - I'm first generation Canadian - my father is from the southern mountains

[RACooper]

Originally posted by kappaloo
I'm still amazed how open about the word Mafia we are. Two generations ago - you didn't dare utter the name. (I'm half Italian and my grandmother still doesn't like talk of it in her house)

I can identify with that.... at my high school it was verboten to speak of the Mafia (even as a joke). I guess it came from the fact that there were a number of kids whose parents were connected. While some of them denied it, some privately admitted it.... and some couldn't deny like the Commisso kids. Hanging-out with some of the guys I was never told anything outright, but you do pick-up on things...