What about small NPC's?

[PKTKKG]

I think Gamma Phi Beta will have to be here for a year after they colonize before they could get a lot in the Greek Village but don't quote me on that. They are colonizing in the fall 2004, so I think the very earliest they could be in a house would be fall 2006. That would be very agressive though given the money required.

[33girl]

Thanks sugar and spice for finding that post. I have a nasty sinus headache that will not go, so my thoughts might be somewhat disconnected.

Actually, russell is the most on the money with his answer. I hope she doesn't mind me sharing this, but when the New Mex state expansion came up, we were one of the groups up for it. DG got picked instead. I asked one of the girls on here who is from NMSU what she thought, and she said everyone liked us, but DG could commit to keeping 1 or 2 consultants there for a year. ASA could not. But here's the deal: we have 3 consultants for this whole year. DG has around 10. The school wants a sorority that will start out strong, so why wouldn't they pick the one who could do that? I can't be mad at DG or the school's NPC for that.

astroaphi - yes, we have had lots of opportunities to expand. I have lots of opportunities to go into Saks and buy Chanel handbags too. That doesn't mean that I CAN. There is nothing I would love more than to be at some of the big schools we used to be at and places like LSU, Cornell, USC etc. We just do not have the money. That doesn't mean we're in a bad financial state, we just don't have as much disposable income.

The only way I can think of that this could have been prevented from happening is that when the smaller groups first joined NPC, the larger groups were prevented from expanding for a period - much like when a new chapter comes to campus, the existing chapters have to stop recruitment for a period of time. But that idea is a day late and a dollar short.

[Glitter650]

Originally posted by ktsnake
First off, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one... here's mine

If you're a smaller organization that aspires to be a 'top tier' organization, you have to be willing and able to put out the effort to become competitive. Because you're not always there, you have to work twice as hard (probably harder) to get there as the folks that are already there.

Either you're not able (lack of resources) or you're not willing (lack of motivation). I'd tend to think it's more of the former and less of the later.

As the saying goes, usually, the rich just get richer.

Hummm...maybe on a chapter level improving your "tier" status (if you believe in it) can be a lack of motivation....but I don't buy that... improving your "tier" nationally (if you belive in national "tiers") is a lack of motivation...
I happen to know that Phi Sig (as a "smaller" sorority that may have trouble getting expansion votes on larger greek campuses) has a VERY motivated expansion committee who I'm sure put their heart and soul into expansion presentations....
sometimes I'm sure people just haven't heard of us becuase we are most strong in the northeast... sometimes I'm sure there are financial barriers...(have to be able to buy a huge house to be competetive)
sometimes it really is a matter of geograhpy... I mean even a "larger" sorority like Phi Mu probably woudln't get chosen here on a Cali campus because they are rather under represented here considering how strong they are in the south. ( I think there's only 3-5 chapters of Phi Mu here in Cali. But with as much love as people have for their GLOs a lack of motivation... ESPECIALLY on the national level since these women have decided their GLOs are important enough to continue their involvment after collegiate yeas...I really just don't see motivation as a bar to expansion at all really...

[pirepresent]

Okay, I am a member of the expansion committee for my Phi Sig, and when I saw this thread, I was very curious to see what people had to say. Having experienced first hand the trials and tribulations of expansion for a "smaller" sorority, there are a couple things I'd like to share.

First of all, as some of you might know we were one of the groups selected to present at Cornell. I was actually at the presentation. Now, granted, there were huge differences between us and Alpha Xi Delta - AXD's materials were extremely well designed, they had a video, all kinds of stuff, whereas all we had was a powerpoint presentation (we're fixing that, don't worry!). That being said, all the things that have been mentioned in this thread, i.e. alumnae support and money, we had and were ready to committ 100% to that colony. We have more chapters in NY than any other NPC org. The alumnae support was there. We had plenty of money in the chapter reserve fund from when the Cornell chapter was there before. We had a chapter consultant ready and waiting to move in to Ithaca to live there for an entire year to support the colony.

Yet we didn't get a single vote. Not one.

Now I'm not saying AXD didn't deserve it more than we did. AXD is a fabulous organization and I honestly wish them the best of luck. They're going to do an amazing job and have an amazing chapter. So please don't take this the wrong way. I'm only trying to provide the view of an expansion committee member from a small org.

Do I think Phi Sig could have done just as good as a colony there? Absolutely. Am I also hurt that we didn't get a single vote? That not one of the groups thought that Phi Sig would be a good choice, given everything that we also had going for us? Of course I'm hurt.

I do also think at the same time that there is much more to the expansion process than meets the eye. Again, I am very very happy that Alpha Xi Delta was chosen, this is not a post out of bitterness or anything like that. I am just saying that sometimes, for whatever reason, there is more to picking a group than alumnae, money, and geographics.

This is one of the reasons I see GC as such a valuable tool for smaller groups, like Phi Sig. As I've often read, many people out there aren't really even aware of the smaller groups. So hopefully, all of my sisters are making positive impressions on all of you out there - and maybe some day, when your school opens for expansion, you WILL say "hey, i'd love to see phi sig here, those girls are great!". Because that's how the strong groups got so strong - people meet Chi O's, or Tri Delts, or Thetas, or Kappas, etc, and think, "hey, those girls are the best, I'd love to have them here!" and when the school opens for expansion, thats who they want. Am I jealous that we're not there yet? Of course But we'll get there. I'm keeping the faith.

[33girl]

Glitter650 -

I think ktsnake was agreeing with you, that he thought it was more of the former (lack of $) and less of the latter (lack of motivation).

There are some fraternities who I think have consciously decided to stay small and not pursue expansion opportunities, but that's a whole other animal.

[Tom Earp]

Usually, smaller Groups, because of the Size of Their Number of Chapters or maybe less well known are not chosen just for that very reason.

Maybe for the reason of how many Chapters are in the General Area for support. How many $$$, and support is the organization willing to give to a new beginning Chapter.

Expansion in this day and age is just as hard as it was when Most were Founded! Distance and Travel were much harder, but those that decided to expand while others did not.

Just look at the Fraternitys that were the Union Triad. They are Small while The Miami Triad seems to be the ones that have grown. But at a point in their time, they also did not want to expand. I know, I felt that sting in the mid 60's. At that time, there were two Fraternitys that wanted to: LXA and TKE.

[pirepresent]

There is just one more thing I'd like to add to what I said before, and something to think about for all of you who are at schools that are in the expansion process or thinking about expanding. Something that doesn't really come through in presentations.

It's impossible for the "smaller" orgs to get funding to play with the big orgs if they are only able to open chapters at schools where the average chapter size is in the 20's or 30's. So it's a question of considering what came first, the chicken or the egg? Do you have to have the money/alumnae first, or should you open the chapter so that you can have the money/alumnae?

I do know this: Phi Sig, and probably many other "smaller" groups, want to be at the big schools. We WANT to play with the Kappas, the Pi Phis, the Tri Delts, the SKs, etc. If we have the opportunity to colonize a large chapter, we will do whatever it takes to be successful, and stretch resources like crazy until that colony has what it needs. So then, when you're making the decision, you have to think - what would this chapter mean to each org? While every group values ALL of it's chapters, when it's the kind of chapter that can help boost a "small" org into the "medium" range, versus helping a big group just get bigger... Wouldn't it be that much more meaningful give the small group out a chance to shine?

Just a thought.

[AEPhiSierra]

I honestly think the main reason AEPhi is small is sort of by choice. AEPhi is a historically jewish sorority and while its membership is open to people of all races and religions ( I am a non-jewish AEPhi chapter president and no aspect of national programming or ritual has made me uncomfortable with that) it doesn't down play that it was founded by seven jewish women. If a school is looking to open a chapter and their are no jewish women on campus it most likely will not be drawn to AEPhi. If you simply look at the location of AEPhi chapters: the Northeast, Southern California and schools that draw from those areas you will see this.

During my time in AEPhi I have never really heard of an AEPhi chapter starting through the formalized NPC open expansion process where several organizations make presentations and the panhel votes on which organization they prefer. From my knowledge most recent AEPhi chapters are started by interest groups/local sororities that are composed entirely or partially of jewish women who always had the intention of going AEPhi. (In fact I am aware of at least 2 or 3 local sororities that were formed with the intention of affiliating with AEPhi but were unable to secure an expansion vote from their panhel)

If AEPhi's supreme goal was to become very large I personally believe they would only be able to do this if they downplayed the organizations jewish roots and this is something they are not willing to do because it would be denying our organization's heritage.

I would also imagine that this might be the situation for other nationals where religion was an aspect of their founding such SDT and Theta Phi. Regardless of their national policies they are still labeled by the religion of their founders.

[AXORissa]

you know, living in the Northeast, before I came to GC, i never heard of some of the big chapters, Pi Phi, Theta..... I really only knew the seven at my school (DG, SK, Phi Sig, SDT, ZTA, GPB and of course AXO...) - i only knew of CHi Omega because people would confuse us with them... Tri-Delt because of SNL...

but I knew of a lot of the smaller ones because my friends were in them at other schools- mainly DPhiE, Tri-Sig, AEPhi.... so those are more familiar to me than the "big" chapters. Like every school in NJ has a Phi Sig, but we were the only AXO chapter in the state.

heh, since im bored, the NPC chapters in some schools in NJ: heh, its like all small chapters.. and then ZTA.

(note: I got these off the schools websites, so the info may be inaccurate)

Rider U:
Alpha Xi Delta
Delta Phi Epsilon
Phi Sigma Sigma
Zeta Tau Alpha


Monmouth U:
Alpha Sigma Tau
Delta Phi Epsilon
Phi Sigma Sigma
Theta Phi Alpha
Zeta Tau Alpha

Rowan U:
Alpha Epsilon Phi
Theta Phi Alpha
Alpha Sigma Alpha
Delta Phi Epsilon
Delta Zeta
Phi Sigma Sigma
Sigma Sigma Sigma


the college of NJ:
Delta Phi Epsilon
Delta Zeta
Kappa Delta
Phi Sigma Sigma
Sigma Sigma Sigma
Theta Phi Alpha
Zeta Tau Alpha


Montclair state:
Delta Phi Epsilon
Phi Sigma Sigma
Sigma Delta Tau
Sigma Sigma Sigma

Kean U:
Delta Phi Epsilon
Theta Phi Alpha

anyways, im bored of looking. But its interesting to see these NJ schools with the same smaller chapters, while Rutgers is a much larger school, and is more diverse with what chapters we have...

[33girl]

Originally posted by pirepresent
There is just one more thing I'd like to add to what I said before, and something to think about for all of you who are at schools that are in the expansion process or thinking about expanding. Something that doesn't really come through in presentations.

It's impossible for the "smaller" orgs to get funding to play with the big orgs if they are only able to open chapters at schools where the average chapter size is in the 20's or 30's. So it's a question of considering what came first, the chicken or the egg? Do you have to have the money/alumnae first, or should you open the chapter so that you can have the money/alumnae?

I do know this: Phi Sig, and probably many other "smaller" groups, want to be at the big schools. We WANT to play with the Kappas, the Pi Phis, the Tri Delts, the SKs, etc. If we have the opportunity to colonize a large chapter, we will do whatever it takes to be successful, and stretch resources like crazy until that colony has what it needs. So then, when you're making the decision, you have to think - what would this chapter mean to each org? While every group values ALL of it's chapters, when it's the kind of chapter that can help boost a "small" org into the "medium" range, versus helping a big group just get bigger... Wouldn't it be that much more meaningful give the small group out a chance to shine?

Just a thought.

That's a wonderful thought...but (especially after reading Dolphin Chica's post) I don't think many schools or Panhels are going to be that altruistic.

[Glitter650]

=== Pulls hair out ===

[PhiRhoSister]

Originally posted by AEPhiSierra
During my time in AEPhi I have never really heard of an AEPhi chapter starting through the formalized NPC open expansion process where several organizations make presentations and the panhel votes on which organization they prefer. From my knowledge most recent AEPhi chapters are started by interest groups/local sororities that are composed entirely or partially of jewish women who always had the intention of going AEPhi. (In fact I am aware of at least 2 or 3 local sororities that were formed with the intention of affiliating with AEPhi but were unable to secure an expansion vote from their panhel)

If AEPhi's supreme goal was to become very large I personally believe they would only be able to do this if they downplayed the organizations jewish roots and this is something they are not willing to do because it would be denying our organization's heritage.

I would also imagine that this might be the situation for other nationals where religion was an aspect of their founding such SDT and Theta Phi. Regardless of their national policies they are still labeled by the religion of their founders.

Although Phi Sigma Rho is not a NPC sorority, the majority of our chapters also start as interest groups/local sororities that decide to go Phi Sigma Rho because we are a niche market social sorority. In fact, we have only been able to start chapters at many big universities since we did not have to wait for an expansion vote from Panhel.

If we had to wait for an expansion vote, we would never have the opportunity to get on many campuses. It seems that the larger the Greek system, the more the Panhel strictly follows the NPC recommendations for expansion and suggested Panhel bylaws that are listed in the Greek Book (specifically, not expanding until all sororities are at total, quote, etc). Until NPC changes its Greek Book recommendations and suggested bylaws, I do not see how any smaller NPC group can really expand effectively.

For example, just a few things that would help the smaller NPC sororities:

1. Expansion formal presentations by NPC sororities should be as Panhel formal recruitments (i.e. strict rules to level out the playing field, so that the focus is on a sorority's values and not its budget, etc.).
2. NPC needs to change its Green Book recommendations and suggested bylaws, since many Panhels view anything in the Green Book as sometime that must be done as a Unanimous Agreement rather than as an example.
3. A Panhel should not be able to prevent a interest group/local sorority from becoming an associate member of Panhel.
4. If an interest group/local sorority approaches a Panhel about bring on another NPC sorority, the Panhel should not be able to prevent the interest group/local sorority from doing. The Panhel should only have the right to vote to allow a 1-year period to strengthen any existing sorority and/or convience the group to join an existing sorority, before the group can begin the expansion process with the NPC sorority of the group's choosing.

By making changes that would encourage more expansion of the smaller NPC groups, NPC would also be showing that it is truly "panhellenic" to other non-NPC national sororities. There are at least 3-4 niche market national social sororities, including Phi Sigma Rho, that are presently or will soon be eligible for NPC associate membership. Unless, NPC makes changes that would encourage these national sororities to join NPC, I can see these groups as eventually going the way of the cultural group and starting their own sorority conference rather than joining NPC.

[sugar and spice]

Part of me thinks that this is one of the major reasons why requirements to join the NPHC are so much stricter than the NPC (as well as the fact that there are more chapters of each NPHC sorority or fraternity), and I'm wondering if maybe the NPC should adopt policies more similar to the NPHC's. For example, I think you need something like 50 chapters before you can join the NPHC, as opposed to the NPC's 13. A sorority that has only 15 chapters but is forced to play by NPC rules in regards to expansion is NOT going to thrive. The same sorority, if it expands on its own until it has 50 chapters and THEN petitions for NPC membership, is going to have an easier time of things.

[AEPhiSierra]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Part of me thinks that this is one of the major reasons why requirements to join the NPHC are so much stricter than the NPC (as well as the fact that there are more chapters of each NPHC sorority or fraternity), and I'm wondering if maybe the NPC should adopt policies more similar to the NPHC's. For example, I think you need something like 50 chapters before you can join the NPHC, as opposed to the NPC's 13. A sorority that has only 15 chapters but is forced to play by NPC rules in regards to expansion is NOT going to thrive. The same sorority, if it expands on its own until it has 50 chapters and THEN petitions for NPC membership, is going to have an easier time of things.

But the difference with NPHC is that they are much more accepting of much smaller collegiate chapters or instead have regional chapters. My campus has 3 NPHC chapters, 2 which re-chartered recently and one that's always been around and combined i don't think they have more than 15-20 members but I am sure their nationals are ok with this because NPHC really believes in quality over quantity. NPC on the other had would never expand with a sorority where the average chapter size is less than 20.

Also I agree with some of PhiRhoSister's points. Interest groups are often not allowed to affiliate with a national because the current chapters are not at total or whatever. If an interest group is forming there is a part of the student population that feels there isn't a place for them in the school's current greek system. Let them affiliate and give them the heads up that they will probably not make total and see if they're are ok with that. Some organizations may be ok with a 30 person chapter on a campus where total is 60 because its not just about numbers. And people may disagree with this but what about campus with nationals and locals. Often, if not usually, the locals are smaller but the members are ok with this because the local organization fits their needs.

[aopinthesky]

>>>>If an interest group/local sorority approaches a Panhel about bring on another NPC sorority, the Panhel should not be able to prevent the interest group/local sorority from doing<<<<

An interest group on a campus should not get to decide when a new NPC sorority is invited to that campus. Everyone (especially smaller sororities with fewer resources) will get shot in the foot with a policy like that. While I am a fan of NOT bringing in new sororities when there are struggling ones, there are times when it is warranted (the struggling sorority has not made efforts to improve, for instance). At no time, though, should a group of women get to band together and tell a campus when it is time for a new sorority. There are many more factors to consider besides what that group wants and when they want it.