Sell Out???

[DoggyStyle82]

I agree with Mandingo Nupe, and ECLIPSE and somewhat with RAIN MAN. No one has to be culturally Black. I disagree with MN on this though. Being black is more than a racial composition. It is a state of mind, being, and culture. We all have varying degrees of "cultural blackness" be it rural southern to urban ghetto to upwardly mobile to 2nd generation college educated to suburban to little or no contact with other "cultural" Black folks. Have you ever met "physically" Black people who have no concept of Black culture? Who can not interact with other Blacks because they have no cultural connection, frame of reference, or similar life experience. I often forget that there were two other Black seniors in my graduating class of 110 (there were 5 black students). They had nothing in common with the three of us. They grew up with all whites, attended all white schools, churches, orgs, etc. I never considered them sell-outs although everything about them was "white" (speech pattern, hairstyle, dress, carriage) They never even spoke to other Black students or joined the Black Student Group. Some people just don't care to be Black (in the cultural sense) and some just aren't born into it and some are Uncle Toms. Yes Clarence Thomas is an Uncle Tom and so is Ward Connerly. If you make it difficult for other Blacks to feed ,clothe, educate, employ, or otherwise better themselves as you have, then you are an Uncle Tom, regardless of political or social affiliations, or if you down Black folks to make yourself look good to white benefactors or audience, you are a Tom (Larry Elder and his ilk). I don't think Rice and Powell fall into those categories

[Sunshine14]

Back to the issue at hand, thanks for all of the EDUCATED responses. Eclipse I couldn't agree with you more. These people are in no way contributing to society if anything they are what's hurting us. I really wish that people in high positions would do more positive things within our communities. I hope Condoleeza Rice along with other Blacks in high postions take the leadership roles needed in our communities to help make a difference for the better!

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by Eclipse:
Being conservative in and of itself does not make someone a sell-out.. You know who I consider sell-outs?
Those African-American men and women who sell drugs in our communities

Those professional athletes/entertainers/business people who are making PHAT $$$ who do absolutely nothing to give back to the community.

Black folks who feel like if they speak to the (usually Black) custodial worker in the office then their white co-workers will realize that they are black too!!

Those Black folks who think the white man's ice is colder!

Black entertainers who feel absolutely no responsibility for the filth that they put on TV/in records, but are all about the bling-bling!

Mothers or Fathers who abuse/neglect/don't support their black children

Black business owners who sell inferior products at inflated prices then EXPECT you to support them!

ALL SELL_OUTS!!!


Just because a person has idealogical differences does not mean that they are sell outs. Example: some blacks do not believe in afirmative action. They believe that the best way for blacks to reach equality in this society is for them (us) to delay gratification, open our own businesses, take advantage of SMB loans, etc. Now I don't necessarily think that someone who believes that, no matter how misguided I think they are, is a sell-out

Eclipse,

I chose to respond to the question by respondind to you. I have read the above responses, and I agree with a little bit of each. When I think of sellouts, I think of the Apartheid struggle in South Africa, and how they handled sellouts. I wish we had the nerve to do the same; maybe the other races in America would then respect us.

I'm surprised some people here mentioned drug dealers as sellouts. I mentioned something to that effect in October, and got all but 5 responses to it. For the typical black family in America, the drug dealer is the sellout closest to us. We all know someone on crack; and that's why I say that. On the opposite side of that spectrum, we all know Clarence Thomas. The sellouts in between have been defined/exposed by the above respondents; and in my opinion, you in particular. Good answers, yall; and you in particular Eclipse.

[LadyAKA]

Originally posted by Bobby Earl:
In my opinion, of course...
(I gotta watch myself, people are sensitive up in this camp...)

Bobby Earl you are too funny but right on point with this comment ...

Anyway, peeked my head in to say Great topic, I have opinions, but I also have a class to train this week ...too busy, you guys continue ...this is getting good!!

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:

I often forget that there were two other Black seniors in my graduating class of 110 (there were 5 black students). They had nothing in common with the three of us. They grew up with all whites, attended all white schools, churches, orgs, etc. I never considered them sell-outs although everything about them was "white" (speech pattern, hairstyle, dress, carriage) They never even spoke to other Black students or joined the Black Student Group.

The following is a question not a statement!!

Do you think that was negligence on their part?

How can you be black and never pick up a book and read about the struggles of your people? Im not asking you to assume the characteristics of "being black", but the least you could do is be aware, if for nothing else than to make sure you're never a part of the problem.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by serenity_24:

The following is a question not a statement!!

Do you think that was negligence on their part?

How can you be black and never pick up a book and read about the struggles of your people? Im not asking you to assume the characteristics of "being black", but the least you could do is be aware, if for nothing else than to make sure you're never a part of the problem.

Serenity: you assume that it was negligence on their part. At the time, they seemed more than content to lead their "colorless" lives. Although we "cultural" Blacks believe that they are missing out, it is really up to the individual. Some people do not want that burden. Natalie Cole speaks eloquently to this. She grew up seperated from Black culture and her mother tried to diminish her "cultural" Blackness. When she got to college at height of the Black Power movement, she was lost, and then tried to reconnect in a self-destructive manner (doing drugs to prove that she was down, etc). Again, I felt sorry for them, bit evidently, they did not care to know and that is their decision. I can't make anyone appreciate something that they don't want and I won't force it on them either.

[Talaxe]

Originally posted by Sunshine 14:
I was just wondering if I am wrong for thinking that Blacks who are Republicans or Blacks who join white sororities and fraternities are some how selling out to the black race??

I honestly haven't heard anyone use the term "sell-out" around me in years. I don't really know what would constitute a "sell-out." I'm guessing it would be someone who refuses to acknowledge their heritage.

I don't think by joining a white greek organization or a certain political party makes one a "sell-out." We are are *NOT*a homogenous group of people who think, believe, act, or behave the same. It's interesting, many white people believe that by the majority of us voting Democractic makes us racist somehow, but that's another topic.

Good question.

[This message has been edited by Talaxe (edited January 24, 2001).]

[Rain Man]

Originally posted by Sunshine14:
Look!! 1st off this is a chat forum which makes it a place to raise debateable issues and express different view points. It is quite obvious Rainman that this shoe fits your foot perfectly. Again, I did not direct anything to you. But it seems as though you've gotten your feelings hurt over an issue that obviously concerns you. I don't know you and I honestly don't care where you live and who you associate with. I merely asked a debateable question about Condoleeza Rice's affiliations. I still wonder about her views as a black woman considering these affiliations. It may not be hard for you to relate since you seem to fit the mold but it is for me. I never called you a sell out, hell I don't even know you. I guess you've been called that before the reason you're taking this so seriously! I never called anyone a sell out I merely asked a question to get other EDUCATED views not to throw stones and argue back and forth about insecurities! If she chooses to have these affiliations so be it, more power to her, and for the record I never called her a name!! I simply raised a question!

Hold up, stop the clock, LONGSHOT!!!!
*sound of screeching brakes accompanied by a crashing sound*. Advance to Level 6
(Whew thang)

I answered your initial question with "What difference does it make?", but let me revise that so as to not answer a question with a question: "Condoleezza Rice's political and sorority affiliation should have nothing to do with how black she is, and therefore should not play a role." That is my EDUCATED ANSWER!!!!!

As far as whether you or anyone else think I am a sell-out, I personally don't care. As long as I don't sell out on the Kingdom of God, I am okay with myself AFAIC.

I was also responding to posts from StraightBOS and Mandingo Nupe so not all of the post was directed to you. Maybe I should have made three separate posts, but time was short, so I responded to one post. I apologize if I confused you to that effect. As far as all that other stuff you was ranting and raving about, well, all I can say is "whatever".

Please select a dollar amount from Level 6

RM

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
Serenity: you assume that it was negligence on their part. At the time, they seemed more than content to lead their "colorless" lives. Although we "cultural" Blacks believe that they are missing out, it is really up to the individual. Some people do not want that burden. Natalie Cole speaks eloquently to this. She grew up seperated from Black culture and her mother tried to diminish her "cultural" Blackness. When she got to college at height of the Black Power movement, she was lost, and then tried to reconnect in a self-destructive manner (doing drugs to prove that she was down, etc). Again, I felt sorry for them, bit evidently, they did not care to know and that is their decision. I can't make anyone appreciate something that they don't want and I won't force it on them either.

I hear you DGstyle and I understand your position. But as I said before, I would never ask anyone to take on the characteristics of "being black". Honestly, who in their right mind would join a club knowing that if they do so they will be persicuted, mistreated, thought of as less than and incompetent? Nobody would, and I wouldn't ask them to. However the fact remains, they Will be treated in that manner Regardless because of the color of their skin. So why not be aware, as not to burden others as a result of your unawareness?

If you are unaware that the playing field is uneven in an unfavorable position for blacks, how CAN you know that abolishing affirmative action is not the answer?

You dont have to march with me, but at least don't be on the other side throwing rocks claiming you didn't know. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[ManndingoNUPE]

I just wanted to say that nothing is more stimulating than good conversation with my people,(well almost nothing). But really, I am glad that we can discuss and disagree on issues that pertain to our community.

Though we all have our own various opinions, and we do disagree (sometimes kinda heatedly),we still maintain respect and love for that person and their viewpoint.

I love U guys man!!! Big group hug.

MN

P.S. If anyone is coming to DC for the NBA All-stars, hit a brother up.

[Epitome]

This is an excellent topic. I have to applaud those who made the connection that drug dealers are selling out our communities. Along the same lines, I would define a sell-out (in the broad sense) as someone who is not living up to their potential, whether it be by engaging in illegal stuff like being a drug dealer, or just being a plain, ordinary slacker. People who do that are cheating themselves, their families, and their communities out of experiencing life to its fullest.

So...I would have to say CR and CP are not sell-outs. They are both accomplished people. Just because they don't subscribe to the same world view that I do or engage in activities that are "culturally Black" doesn't diminish what they've achieved.

Spankee's post about some Blacks being assimilated (my word, not spankee's) into the White world and not feeling there's anymore struggle is dead on. But again, what about those Blacks who've accepted that poverty, inequality, and drug dealing are just a part of our communities? I'd say they've forgotten the struggle as well. There is apathy on both ends of the spectrum.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle

[NUPE4LIFE]

Originally posted by ManndingoNUPE:
While I do agree that we are an accepting people, I believe that we are far less accepting of our own whos views stray away from mainstream African American views.

If Condolezza Rice wants to join a white sorr. If she wants to go to thier churches, whatever, that's on her. I really don't care. We spend way too much time demonizing each other, becuase we have different viewpoints.

Black is a state of being, not a philosopy, or an ideology. Either you are black or you are not (Period) Nothing that she does can change the fact that she is black, and I don't recall hearing her say that she was anything other than a proud African American. Regardless of her views.

As far as being a "sell-out" or a "Tom" whatever term that is used. I try my best not to use it. I don't agree with everything that the democrats do or think. But I vote Democratic because they tend to be with me on most of the issues. But if I find a Republican who shares my views I am going to vote for him/her, and F^&K what anyone thinks. Rainman, why should you even ask anyone for validation? Validate yourself. If I want to move to the burbs, then I will move to the burbs. If you don't pay my rent, then you have no say on where or how I live.

The realy sad part is that I believe we have been so brainwashed that we fail sometimes to look at things through our own eyes, and not through the lenses of what our current "Black Leadership" thinks. I got mad luv for Jesse and the other "Media/Self" appointed black leadership, but I believe that they tend to speak for a smaller population than they use to.

Sunshine14, No one can tell you how to view these people. I personally believe in live and let live. I can disagree with my brothers and sisters who are in the Republican Party on issues. I don't have to resort to calling folks names. That's childish, and I am far from childhood.

MN

"Many are called, few are chosen, and some just get knocked the f$%* out"

Well said frat, well said!



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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

[AlphaChiGirl]

Originally posted by Sunshine14:
It's just kinda wierd that she grew up in segrgated B'ham attended the historical 16th St Baptist church and went off to college and felt a stronger bond with whites. As far as Colin Powell, I honestly believe he's staright. He's proven himself as a strong leader for not only minorities but America as a whole!

For clarification's sake, Condi didn't attend the 16th Street Baptist Church. Her father is a Presbyterian minister, and his church was near the 16th St Church. She doesn't talk that much about having grown up in Birmingham, but maybe that's because her family left (for her sake, according to many articles I've read) when she was about 9 or 10.

Here's a question...had she been an AKA or DST, but had done NOTHING for the sisterhood or community, would this thread even be taking place? I ask because she is VERY active in Alpha Chi, and has been since becoming an alumna. She is friends with our National President, and recently spoke at our National Convention.

Regardless of her political affiliation and the fact that she DOES remind me of Clarence Thomas (in ways that Gen. Powell doesn't) she is a very likeable, dignified woman. Every article I have read about her fails to mention anything reproachable--she is intelligent, highly moral, well-dressed Black woman who, along with Ruth Simmons, is a great role model for young Black girls.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by AlphaChiGirl:
For clarification's sake, Condi didn't attend the 16th Street Baptist Church. Her father is a Presbyterian minister, and his church was near the 16th St Church. She doesn't talk that much about having grown up in Birmingham, but maybe that's because her family left (for her sake, according to many articles I've read) when she was about 9 or 10.

Here's a question...had she been an AKA or DST, but had done NOTHING for the sisterhood or community, would this thread even be taking place? I ask because she is VERY active in Alpha Chi, and has been since becoming an alumna. She is friends with our National President, and recently spoke at our National Convention.

Regardless of her political affiliation and the fact that she DOES remind me of Clarence Thomas (in ways that Gen. Powell doesn't) she is a very likeable, dignified woman. Every article I have read about her fails to mention anything reproachable--she is intelligent, highly moral, well-dressed Black woman who, along with Ruth Simmons, is a great role model for young Black girls.

Good question.



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"There is only one religion, though there are a hundred versions of it." ~George Bernard Shaw

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by AlphaChiGirl:

Here's a question...had she been an AKA or DST, but had done NOTHING for the sisterhood or community, would this thread even be taking place?

probably...

she is a very likeable...

please clarify, what does this mean?

Is she likeable because she IS NOT OUTSPOKEN? Is she likeable because she is not the "typical" black female? Is she likeable because she doesn't "cause" waves? Is she likeable because she does not espouse the ideals of many African-Americans?

I ask this because many are intimidated by a professional, strong, outspoken, EDUCATED sisters in the world today.

BELIEVE ME, I KNOW...I SEE IT EVERYDAY!

Many sistas are often labeled as being difficult, having attitudes (or in my case, an AKA2D) , hard to get along with etc, so is "Condi" (as you all call her) the opposite? Is this why she is so likeable?


...well-dressed Black woman

what does this mean?

Again, just asking...


[This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited January 25, 2001).]