Here is the real problem!

[ThetaxiUW]

If we do fall under landlord tenant (which we are pretty sure we don't) we are screwed b/c our guarantor will pull out. If we don't then we have to sign our agreements which will give them the right to searches at any time. Which I think is giving up our freedom of privacy. I am checking into homeowners insurance because I think they cannot do this if we have homeowners insurance. Its as if they have a key to our room as well and they can come and go as they please. Thats just not right.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
If we do fall under landlord tenant (which we are pretty sure we don't) we are screwed b/c our guarantor will pull out. If we don't then we have to sign our agreements which will give them the right to searches at any time. Which I think is giving up our freedom of privacy. I am checking into homeowners insurance because I think they cannot do this if we have homeowners insurance. Its as if they have a key to our room as well and they can come and go as they please. Thats just not right.

Why don't you call your headquarters and ask? I'm sure they have someone who specializes in housing.

[ThetaxiUW]

Pleasse refer to my previous post regarding that. Our nationals is controlled by 6 people. One of which is our guarantor.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
Pleasse refer to my previous post regarding that. Our nationals is controlled by 6 people. One of which is our guarantor.

Sorry, I missed that post somehow. Trying to talk to nationals is better than nothing, though, isn't it? It's frustrating trying to help you when you just keep shooting down all our ideas. Have you tried talking to your Greek Life advisor? Have you contacted a lawyer to figure out your rights from your lease?

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Have you tried talking with some of the alums from other UW Fraternity houses, maybe someone you graduated with? They may know all about how the fraternity houses fall into the Seattle landlord-tenant laws. They might even have some advice about dealing with the alumni situation.

Unfortunately, all of my experience is with UPS and our house is University owned.

[ThetaxiUW]

Im not shooting down your ideas, im pointing out that they have alrady been shot down by our alums. I however am looking into it from a renters insurance standpoint. If we are all to get renters insurance through an agency that requires the alumni corp to abide by their terms then we should be okay without having to say to our alumni "I won't sign that". It will be more of a "I can't sign that becuase my renters insurance doesn't allow me to have a secondary party come and search my room without me knowing or being there." It sounds like it might have a chance. And at least the insurance company can tell me if this is legal or not. They are currently checking into their regional office for clarification into the matter. We have consulted an attorney and they were also questioning it as well as to whether it falls under the landlord tenant act. However, an attorney is expensive and we are looking at other options before consulting him. I guess the real question here is: Is this legal?

[Tom Earp]

I am still trying to sort this situation out. I wish you would be a little more explicit on the problems between the Alum and Active members.

The Alums are upset about a few minor changes?

What are the minor changes?


The House Corporation owns the House?

The House Corporation is made up of a Board of Directors, correct?

Are there members of the Active Chapter who are on the Board?

I do not really know that much about you Organization, but LXA has a stingent set of guidelines which are followed for the House Corporation. Who is on the Board, how many Officers from the Alum and what Officers of the Active Chapter are on the Board!

Usually, the House Corporation owns the House as they own title to it. What the Active Chapter does is rent the House from them. They pay rent which in turn pays the bills.

Depending on what the lease agreement states upon signing is what dictates what the rights are of the people who live in the house.

If no such stipulation is given, the Land Lord still has the right to inspect the premisis. This includes private rooms. A notice must be given with a proper time date for both partys to meet at said room. If the party refuses to allow the Land Lord to inspect the room, they can be found in default and asked to vacat. If there is non payment of rent, they can be evicted.

It seems that more blanks to questions need to be filled in!

The Alums plus the co-signer have a very larg responeabilit of paying for a building. A House for Fraternity/Soroity is only a House if that Organization rents it. If not, it is just a building to be let for rent.

[FSUZeta]

maybe the best thing for your chapter to do is consult an attorney who specializes in this type of law(landlord/tenant). but as an alum, i have to ask.....are the members upset because they feel that their rights are being violated, because they have something to hide(disobeying rules) or because they do not like to be told what to do?

[ThetaxiUW]

Tom,

Here is where the problem lies...

A notice must be given with a proper time date for both partys to meet at said room.

Since the landlords think that this property does not fall under the landlord tenant act in Washington, this idea of giving us the proper warning of 48 hours is not necessary and are wanting to host searches with no warning. This is what we think is wrong and are wanting to get out of. We have no propblem with searches as long as they give us warning. There shouldn't be be any problem with that part. The no warning gestapo style searches are our problem. I say "our" but I don;t even live there anymore. I am an alumni that thinks what they are doing is stupid. We don't want to hear that the house does fall under the landlord tenant act however becuase if it does one of guarantor will pull his money out and we will then be forced to shut down unless another alumni cosigns. Another aspect is that we do not feel that we need cosigners in the first place. I am a mortgage consultant and am looking into this part as well. However when we ask the alumni to look into this they say there is no chance and that we should just accept it. Maybe there is no way but I'll find that part out when I meet with a broker this week to discuss it. hopefully that fills in some holes.

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by FSUZeta
are the members upset because they feel that their rights are being violated, because they have something to hide(disobeying rules) or because they do not like to be told what to do?

I don't know anything about landlord/tenant laws, but I also have to ask....

Why is this such a sticking point between actives and alums? Why do the alums want the ability to do room searches at will? Have the actives and alums sat down and talked about what their goals/expectations/standards are for the house? There might be more behind this....and if you can find out what that is, actives and alums may be able to resolve this.

And while you are talking with a lawyer, find out what would happen if the actives had contraband in their rooms. What liabilities do the alums face if something illegal happens in the house they have helped finance? The risks go both ways, the alums may be trying to cover their butts as well.

[DGMarie]

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
Is this legal?

I seriously hope you are not taking legal guidance from this website.

You need to find a real lawyer if you are signing legal contracts with anyone about anything. Expensive? Maybe. But very likely your university offers some sort of legal counsel guidance. Does your school have a law school? Call them and see if they provide pro bono services for student issues.

If you voluntarily agree to sign a contract that allows them to search your room, you may very well find it binding.
But if you sign it and then decide to change the locks to your house, they'd have to sue you for breech of contract. The police won't enforce civil contracts without an order from a judge. You might still end up in court but they'll have to hire an attorney as well. They'd be better off evicting you.

Jeez, sounds like maybe a lawyer is a good idea.

If the alumni have so little trust of the actives, why in the world are they entering into this agreement? Why would the collegians want to live under such terms? I'd rather live in a dorm!

[ThetaxiUW]

The uprising about the surprise room seaches (the main problem) was egged on by our alumni when they did one when everyone was home for spring break. There were three people in the house at the time and things that would beak our "contract" were found. However, there was no contract this year because the contracts were not handed out to people to sign. So we really had no contract. However, we then raised the problem with the searches. The alumni have thus asked us for rights to do surprise room searches and have keys to all devices inside the rooms (safes, lockboxes, etc...). We do have a strict no alcohol or tobacco policy which everyone abides by. Alcohol and toboacco was found. No illicit drugs by any means. Not to mention the alcohol was found only in people rooms that were 21 years of age. They also said that empty beer bottles were also illegal by the "contract".

To me after reading this for myself, it sounds like our alumni corporation is doing a horrible job. They have no trust form the undergraduates as well as no control and respect. But that is just my opinion.

The real problem is that the alumni never really supported our house in the first place and have been controlling us through negative reinforcment as opposed to respect. They are constantly reprimanding the actives and imposing rules upon them.

We tried to change the board to other alumni's at our founders day meeting but we were shot down due

[Tom Earp]

I will try to find more information about TZ (?) on the web.

But if push comes to shove, then this can be considered illegal searches if it is in lock boxes or safes. That cannot be asked.

While the Land lord does have rights to check for damage in the public areas, it turns very gray in the privacy of the room leasers unless a codasal(SIC) is in the lease agreement.

If this is a House Corporation, is there any stipulations of Terms of Office within the Fraternity such as term of office.?

While a very good point was mentioned on here, GC is not a good site for gaurenteeing legal advice, there are some Lawyers on here that may be able to assist you!

Now as an Alum, you may have a stronger voice of what is done if you are staying close to the situation.

It sounds like a bad situation there. LXA has a Group of Alum voentees who have the blessing of the Internatioal to act as an agent, but My Chapter want as much distance as possible to make our own decisions.

PM me if you would like and we can discuss this among us. I will also be more than happy to call you on a weekend to get more ino!

Hang in!

[navane]

Originally posted by ThetaxiUW
The alumni have thus asked us for rights to do surprise room searches and have keys to all devices inside the rooms (safes, lockboxes, etc...).

Ah no......I don't think so! If I were in your situation, this is about where I would have to try really hard to keep from having an outburst in the middle of a meeting. (I can hardly contain myself in this post). There is NO WAY that I would ever let an alum board have the keys to a personal storage unit such as a safe. I cannot believe that would even be brought up! It's one thing if you're referring to the fraternity's safe, ritual equipment cabinet, etc....but NOT NOT NOT the personal storage unit of a member. That is, if that's indeed what you meant and I didn't misunderstand.

It's one thing to love your brothers/sisters dearly, it's another to leave your sentimental or valuable items lying around in a house occupied by dozens of people, especially if there are big parties. Similarly, this applies to people who do not want to leave their belongings unsecured while the house is unoccupied over a break period. Keeping those two points in mind, I see no problem with members having loackable trunks, dressers, mini safes or jewlery chests.

If the alumni members are all in a twist because they want to be able to check to "be sure" there aren't any illegal drugs or alcohol containers in the house, TOO BAD. That does not give them the right to force members to give them the keys to a personal footlocker or jewlery chest - *especially* if they want to be able to riffle through it when the member is on break and not present.

If the alumni told me that was the rule....I would refuse to live in the house. Maybe it's different because I'm a girl, but sifting through my jewlery chest or lockbox would be a major contention point. I have a lot of objects which are important to me.

At any rate, I would be shocked to find out if your house wasn't under the landlord-tenant act. Granted, I don't know much of anything about fraternity housing corps, but aren't you all effectively renting the house? If so, then you should fall under the landlord-tenant clause. That usually means that have to give something like a 24 hour notice to come inside unless there is a clear and present urgent need to enter without permission such as fire, water pipes bursting, etc. Even then, that does not give them the right to sift through your sock drawer if they felt like it.

If your property is found to fall under that clause, and the alumni guarantor pulls out, well then I guess your out of luck unless one of the other alums wants to sign on. If the guarantor did pull out for this reason, it would just be childish. I can see why he'd want to protect his interests against liability issues, but to pull without first trying to work out a compromise is foolishness.

What is it about needing to "have control"? Is there something you are not telling us? For example, has your chapter had any alcohol or drugs violations or other risk management issues lately (in the past year)?

I can't believe that [alumni] brothers would do something so pushy that could cause the chapter to lose the house and possibly even have to fold the chapter. If the landlord-tenant clause is found to be applicable, then maybe you all should call his bluff and see if the guarantor actually pulls out. Or you can invite the alumni around to have a session to respectfully discuss the issue and to hammer out an agreement or compromise like the men and brothers you all are.


.....Kelly

It sounds like high school where they use to do suprise locker searches. But to demand/request keys to locks to safes, etc... that is a little over the line. I would definitely consult a landlord / tenent attny ASAP. HCB may own the house and had you sign a legally binding contract for the room but they do not however own your personal articles and private things in a safe.

I am only a paralegal, and a contract may be legally binding, but i would consult a alwyer regarding this and yoru school SOON!

What a sad sign of fraternal bonding.


laura