Affirmative Action

[prettygyrl]

A need for Affirmative Action?....................mmmmmmmmmmm I would guess that would depend on how yo view Affirmative Action. Now I want say whether we need it or not because that is a matter of opinion. I will say this though the civil rigths movement ws based on EQUAL RIGHTS for all people.... Now do you think that it is fair and equal for someone to be forced to fill a quota of a certain type person? Now think about..... I know racism exists in nasty forms but still I would not want anyone to hire me to fill their quota of Blackness or because I am a woman, I want to be chosen based on my qualifications. See I did not have to work hard to be a Black female I was born that but whateve skills I acquire I dam sure worked hard for and I want them to be recognized. It is not fair for people to get special privilages if they are White nor is it fair if they are Black. Of course. Yes we have been discriminated against throughout history and will probably face some forms of throughout life, but still we fought for fairness and EQUALITY. Affimative Action was enacted, to achieve Equal RESULTS not Equal RIGHTS. There is a difference in the two. There are a lot of reasons why Blacks and women are underrepresented in certain markets today. I hate to burst some peoples bubble but most reasons have nothing to do with racism, it has more to do with personal choices........... I could go on all about this one so I will stop now sorry about the typos.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by prettygyrl:
A need for Affirmative Action?....................mmmmmmmmmmm

See I did not have to work hard to be a Black female I was born that but whateve skills I acquire I dam sure worked hard for and I want them to be recognized. It is not fair for people to get special privilages if they are White nor is it fair if they are Black. Of course. Yes we have been discriminated against throughout history and will probably face some forms of throughout life, but still we fought for fairness and EQUALITY. Affimative Action was enacted, to achieve Equal RESULTS not Equal RIGHTS. There is a difference in the two. There are a lot of reasons why Blacks and women are underrepresented in certain markets today. I hate to burst some peoples bubble but most reasons have nothing to do with racism, it has more to do with personal choices........... I could go on all about this one so I will stop now sorry about the typos.

But when reparations are given to families of Afrikan descent for the enslavement of their ancestors, I damn sho gonna stand in that line to get my updated and current "40 acres and a mule". What is it now, $2 million???

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by prettygyrl:
Now do you think that it is fair and equal for someone to be forced to fill a quota of a certain type person? Now think about..... I know racism exists in nasty forms but still I would not want anyone to hire me to fill their quota of Blackness or because I am a woman, I want to be chosen based on my qualifications.

It is not fair for people to get special privilages if they are White nor is it fair if they are Black. Of course. Yes we have been discriminated against throughout history and will probably face some forms of throughout life, but still we fought for fairness and EQUALITY. Affimative Action was enacted, to achieve Equal RESULTS not Equal RIGHTS. There is a difference in the two. There are a lot of reasons why Blacks and women are underrepresented in certain markets today. I hate to burst some peoples bubble but most reasons have nothing to do with racism, it has more to do with personal choices........... I could go on all about this one so I will stop now sorry about the typos.

prettygryl,
It appears to me that you are misinformed about a couple of things...

First,no one is ever FORCED to set quotas by ANYONE. As a matter of fact, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act only asks that companies and public institutions (again, only those that receive federal dollars over a certain amount and have a certain # of employees) set hiring goals. The company sets the goals themselves and they are not just some arbitrary number pulled out of the sky. They are based on several demograhic factors unique to the industry and the area. If you receive no federal monies and/or don't meet the other standards you can fill your company up with 5'10" 36DD blonde haired/blue eyed barbie dolls for all anyone is going to care or do anything about it for that matter.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but a lot of companies would not be recuiting at the Spelmans and Howards and Jackson States of the world if it were not for Affirmative Action. A lot of companies would do absolutely nothing to recuit QUALIFIED minority or other underrepresented classes. Did you know that the group that has most benefited from AA is White Women?

Know that racism is alive and well all over the good ol' U.S. of A. I know that Suzy was qualified for the position, but so was I. Why did she get the job and I didn't? Could it be because her parents have worked for the company for 30 years and the way this company hires is through employee referrals and the only black people who work in the company are the cleaning person and the file clerk who don't know a whole lotta 'qualified' Black applicants? Maybe she got the job because the recruiter saw that she attended the same prep school that he attended. Maybe Suzy's sorority was the 'sister sorority' to his fraternity. Maybe the recruiter and Suzy just 'clicked', maybe it was something that he could not put his finger on, but he felt really comfortable with her and that she would 'fit' in the company. Me on the other hand...I went to public schools. He doesn't know about Spelman and it's reputation. I have excellent grades too, but the education I received at Spelman could not compare to the education that Suzy received at Big State U....could it? He found me to be a little cocky...a little too sure of myself. Plus I didn't smile a whole lot and does the fact that I wear my hair in braids mean that I am militant or something? So, qualified Suzy got the job, while qualified Eclipse did not. Was that racism or just the selection process? Is it racism when the children of alums are given preference or added weight in the admissions process and 95% of those children are white 'cause it's not like we were going to Big State U in droves in the 60s and 70s (or even now for that matter?) Is it racism when they lower the standards to admit folks with 'special talents that enhance the University experience' i.e. big black Negroes who can run, jump and shoot?


As long at the playing feild is not level, as long as there is disparate treatment and disparate impact there will be a need for Affirmative Actiion.

And before I write another book (or did I do that already? ), let me say again that if standards are lowered it is because a) folks are recognizing cultural disparities or b) because they are too lazy to do the work to attract AND retain qualified minority hires and because it benefits THEM in some way.

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited December 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited December 08, 2000).]

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by ADVOCATE:
Hello Ladies:

I have been monitoring the Board for a while and I love it. I look forward to having discussions with all of you.
But let me get to the point. I want to get everyone's opinion on Affirmative Action. I was in Constitutional Law today and we are discussing the current state of the law concerning this issue. I was so shocked that the majority of the students believe that there is nolonger any need for any type of Affirmative Actions programs. Someone went so far to say that the playing field is now even for minorites so if we can not cut it then we don't deserve to get into the schools or get the jobs!!! I am upset, sorry for the long post. Tell me your thoughts.

Hi again, Advocate.

I wondered why this subject didn't blow up here, considering all the intelligent minds that participate here.

As I mentioned before, Affirmative Action tries to help us to the same level we would have been if we would have come here as anything BUT SLAVES. We were denied jobs because of the color of our skin; so it makes a way for us to get to the front of the line when good jobs are handed out. We were denied contracts, and loans because of the color of our skin; it attempts to send us to the front of the line for those too. This government repaid the Japanese for the misery they suffered here during world war 2, it can pay us for all of the suffering we had during the 500 years of slavery.

[serenity_24]

Prettygyrl,

I was going to post my own reply, but I'll just give two thumbs up to Eclipse and let that be that.

*Two qualified applicants. Only one will get the Job. Will it be you or will it be Suzy Q?*

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by serenity_24:
Prettygyrl,

I was going to post my own reply, but I'll just give two thumbs up to Eclipse and let that be that.

*Two qualified applicants. Only one will get the Job. Will it be you or will it be Suzy Q?*

Thank you serenity! All of the studying I did for my HR certification is paying off!!

[PositivelyAKA]

i can understand both sides of the issue, in an ideal world i would prefer that there be no quotas or AA, i would hope that people saw each other as just people, no color, no class etc. (some do THANK GOD) BUT THAT AIN'T THE CASE OVER ALL
from what i can see i still believe there is a need to make sure regardless of race or heritage or financial bracket that all young people get the opportunity to reach their fullest potential, man and women alike. but perhaps the new generation of blacks who think we've outgrown AA and will get a fair shake need to see AA gone away with and see how well black folks in this country do when Uncle Bob's Restaraunt, or MIS Incorporated (ficitional companies) do not hire and recruit "Negros" knowing that if they would perfer just by choice not ever having a black face walk thru the door, let alone work in the company next to them, then there would be no nothing anyone could do about it. I love the example of the sport programs at many white universities, often many of the students, particualary black males are there due to the enormous exposure and income that they bring in with their athletic abilities, i doubt very seriously even with 4.0's most of those brothers would have been recruited let alone admitted to these top notch schools (no offense). if it benefits them they will let us in, when it doesn't benifit them, FORGET ABOUT IT must we go back to skee how far we still need to come? i hope not.

[ADVOCATE]

Hello everyone:

I'm sorry that I have been missing in action but between my finals and a full time job a sister got a little stressed, to say the least. I am happy to see that the topic of AA has gotten some attention on this page. But I stand firm in my beliefs that the playing field is still uneven. You would not send a person into war without teaching them how to survive and arming them with the necessary weapons. All I am saying is that we (meaning minorities in this country) got our weapons a little later. In addition, we are still plaugued by forces that do not want us to be true equals. Therefore, a system needs to be in place in order make up for the damage caused by the powers that be. Does any one feel what I am trying to say? I hope so.
Peace and Blessings

[AKAtude]

1.support black enterprise, eg. find a nail salon that is black owned or have a sista do your nails if she has skills (we all know we get sick of being dissed in a foriegn language to our faces)and refer others to black owned businesses.

Soror PositivelyAKA,
You have brought up a good point, but I would like to add to it. This is off the topic a bit, but it needs to be said. When we do support black businesses, it would be nice if they in turn show some professionalism.

As many of you know, I've been in the midst of planning my wedding. When I began looking for vendors (photographers, videographers, bakeries, etc.) I asked for suggestions and used the Black Pages because I wanted to patronize black businesses. The problem I encountered is that many of them are slack.

However, I didn't let a few bad apples spoil it for others. Eventually, I found a wonderful and professional black photograhpher, a husband-wife videography team, black-owned bakery, florist, and musicians. I made the effort to seek them out and separate the bad ones from the good ones. It was a little frustrating at times, but I'm glad I made the choice to do so.

[This message has been edited by AKAtude (edited December 14, 2000).]

[serenity_24]

I completely agree with you on the Lack of Professionalism expressed by some black businesses.

However, has anyone ever spoken out to the owners or employees of these establishments?

I remember going to the bursars office at my school (HBCU) and the lady at the window told me to hold on a sec because Days of Our Lives was on and she wanted to wait until the next commercial. OOOOOOHHHHH I went off, and then wrote a letter to the dean. I still attended the school, and still have love for the school and it's triflin' staff, and would do it again if I had a choice.

I will patronize our businesses, but I will let them know how I feel about their service.

[Sweetsista]

Originally posted by ADVOCATE:
Hello everyone:

I'm sorry that I have been missing in action but between my finals and a full time job a sister got a little stressed, to say the least. I am happy to see that the topic of AA has gotten some attention on this page. But I stand firm in my beliefs that the playing field is still uneven. You would not send a person into war without teaching them how to survive and arming them with the necessary weapons. All I am saying is that we (meaning minorities in this country) got our weapons a little later. In addition, we are still plaugued by forces that do not want us to be true equals. Therefore, a system needs to be in place in order make up for the damage caused by the powers that be. Does any one feel what I am trying to say? I hope so.
Peace and Blessings

Girl, I feel you. The playing field is most definitely uneven. However, I do not feel that Affirmative Action is necessarily the best way to go about leveling the playing field. BUT, until another alternative is provided, AA is undoubtedly better than nothing at all, and it should not be abolished until a better option is thrown out there. I personally have been trying to think of ways to revise the AA system, but some of them are just not reasonable when it comes down to it. Do any others of you agree that AA is, for lack of better terms, a necessary (but not the best solution) means to an end?

[PositivelyAKA]

our wealth and skills as blacks will most likely determine our role in this country in the future. some of us are already on the right track, but we need to encourage our children and those coming behind us to consider careers that allow us to gain wealth and power, we need to be property owners, investors, savers vs huge spenders, dr's, lawyers, business owners, entertainers, the more money we keep in our communities the more power we will have. and we need to suppport each other whenever possible instead of always pumping our money into a system that doesn't respect us.

some possible praticals:
1.support black enterprise, eg. find a nail salon that is black owned or have a sista do your nails if she has skills (we all know we get sick of being dissed in a foriegn language to our faces)and refer others to black owned businesses.
2. mentor/tutor a black child, help them build dreams.
3. stay active in our organizations as we do many community projects and donate monies every year to help our people reach their potential.

[AKA_Monet]

Got this in an email and I thought I'd share it with y'all...

Minority programs eroding on campus

Supreme Court ruling has prompted colleges to rethink and revamp offerings that promote affirmative action

By Jodi S. Cohen
Tribune staff reporter

September 29, 2004

Jessica Perlo arrived at Northwestern University two weeks early, one of 32 freshmen eager to get a jump-start on college by participating in writing workshops, campus tours and meetings with student organizations.

Launched during the Civil Rights movement, the orientation program was long reserved for minority students--not for whites such as Perlo, 18, who said she was lucky to get a chance to attend.

"Any other year, I wouldn't be here," said Perlo, of Woodland Hills, Calif., one of the first non-minority students to participate in the 38-year-old Summer Academic Workshop. "You get to know the campus early so when school starts, I'm not lost."

Throughout the country, schools such as Northwestern are opening up minority scholarships, fellowships, academic support programs and summer enrichment classes to students of any race.

The change follows last year's U.S. Supreme Court ruling that race can be considered in college admissions but only among other factors and that each candidate must be evaluated individually. That landmark 5-4 decision, hailed as a victory by college and university officials, preserved affirmative action in admissions, but found unconstitutional a University of Michigan program that automatically gave extra points to African-American, Latino and American Indian applicants.

In what some now say is an unexpected erosion of affirmative action, colleges are interpreting the ruling to mean they can no longer offer race-exclusive programs designed specifically to help minority students.

Critics of the trend to eliminate such programs argue that they remain constitutional because the court decision only addressed admissions. But some college officials, worried about potential lawsuits, are taking a different stance.

At Yale University in New Haven, Conn., for example, an orientation program for minority freshmen, along with two research fellowships, has been opened to all students. Two undergraduate scholarships once restricted to minority students at the University of Michigan are offered to anyone who adds to "the overall excellence and diversity of the university community."

And at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, a program for minority engineering students that provided internships, scholarships and tutoring was renamed and broadened to include non-minority students.

"Everybody has seen pretty clearly that the court is frowning on programs that are 100 percent race based," said Stephen Fischer, Northwestern's associate provost for undergraduate education.

Of the students who participated in the university's early orientation program this year, five were white or Asian.

There is concern that including other groups in orientation programs will make it harder to create an early comfort zone for minority students, an original goal of the program, Fischer said. "There is a little bit of a loss in terms of social networking that can be accomplished," he said.

Elise Boddie, education director for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, disagrees that the court ruling requires universities to abandon minority-only programs. She worries that schools have begun to relinquish their support of affirmative action programs despite a shortage of minority students at many of the nation's campuses.

"These programs have been critical to opening up doors of opportunity for students of color," said Boddie who is concerned that schools "may be sending unwelcoming signals to minority students."

Sharon Jones, president of the Black Women Lawyers' Association of Greater Chicago, said universities are unnecessarily caving in to legal threats.

"Nothing requires the schools to get rid of those programs," said Jones, who wrote a legal brief to the Supreme Court in support of the University of Michigan. "However, you have to be willing to be sued, litigate it and spend a lot of money to win. And a lot of institutions aren't willing to."

All of this is being hailed as good news by affirmative action critics such as the Center for Equal Opportunity in Virginia. Early last year, the conservative advocacy group began sending letters to about 100 colleges, threatening to file complaints with the U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights if their race exclusive programs weren't changed.

"The point the court emphasized was dividualized consideration," said Roger Clegg, the center's vice president and general counsel. "A program where a student is not allowed to participate for no other reason than skin color is not providing individualized consideration."

One of the group's letters targeted a minority engineering project at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. That project, formerly called the Minority Engineering Program, was altered this summer and renamed the Morrill Engineering Program.

The 30-year-old program provided academic tutoring and helped minority students forge relationships with companies by offering internships and scholarships.

Now administrators of the program have been told by university officials that they can't limit their recommendations to minority students.

"The minority students are not going to be funded," said Paul Parker, assistant dean for academic programs in the College of Engineering, who also said there could be a drop in the college's 8 percent minority enrollment.

Even when programs are open to students of all races and ethnicities, the types of students who choose to participate may not change. At Yale University, a weeklong orientation program that focused on racial and ethnic identity included non-minority students for the first time this summer, but only one of the 97 participants was white, said spokeswoman Gila Reinstein.

Many school administrators are looking to see what happens at the University of Michigan, which defended its undergraduate and law school affirmative action admissions policies before the U.S. Supreme Court.

Some Michigan programs will continue, including speaking engagements and other outreach efforts at Detroit high schools aimed at African-American and Latino students. But officials continue to review and change the university's scholarships, recruiting efforts and academic support! programs, said University of Michigan attorney Jonathan Alger.

Colleges appear most reluctant to reduce minority-targeted scholarships and financial aid that could make a difference in whether a student picks a particular school. At Michigan, for example, administrators increased the number of total awards rather than risk not serving minority students because of a larger applicant pool.

"What schools have done is expand the criteria so many of the same people are now included but it is not race-exclusive. Many of these achieve the same ends," said Sheldon Steinbach, general counsel for the American Council on Education, a Washington organization representing 1,800 college and university administrators.

Some colleges have not decided whether to change their practices, including the University of Illinois at Chicago, where a committee is reviewing programs that may be legally questionable, said spokesman Mark Rosati.

Other campuses intend to defend their programs, at least for now.

Swarthmore, Haverford and Bryn Mawr Colleges in Pennsylvania continued their jointly run minority freshman program this summer for about 75 students who arrived on campus a few days early for leadership training and to learn about academic and extracurricular programs. The goal is to "prepare them for some of the challenges of being non-white in the white-majority context," said Swarthmore spokesman Tom Krattenmaker.

"That is among the programs we are reviewing to make sure they are not in violation," said Maurice Eldridge, Swarthmore's vice president of college and community relations. "I don't think one has to automatically assume that because there is tension in this area, that one is automatically doing something wrong."

But where programs have changed, students and administrators are waiting to see how the changes will affect campus life.

At Northwestern, about 120 of the 1,000 freshmen in the Arts and Sciences school were invited to this year's early orientation program. Instead of sending invitations to every African American, Latino and American Indian student as in years past, officials invited students who they thought could use extra help in writing.

"I'm glad it's open to everyone," said Lindsey White, a biracial student from Minnesota, "What we can learn is beneficial to everyone."

Copyright (c) 2004, Chicago Tribune