Risk mgt violation costs ASU big

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by chopper816
well, there was a motion proposed at the last ga about dropping the name fraternity to brotherhood, and that failed, so stuff is proposed without the needed number of votes to pass, no one at regionals liked that one. i dont think the make up of the active chapters now would pass any motion about going dry. all the brothers from other chapters get sick of talk about us going dry. im not trying to glorify alcohol, but im facing reality, its apart of the college experience, the fraternal experience, and people will go down in a blaze of glory to keep this fraternity non-dry. if any of you have been at a conclave or any conference, it shows that guys like their beer. also, ive been told by alumni that measures like this have been proposed before, and failed, itll do so now. we either lose a few chapters by them being stupid, or lose even more chapters by going dry, thats the choice.

im not trying to to get into some big argument about alcohol, im just strongly opposed to going dry, and i know itll do more harm then good.

The name change was not a "paradigm shift" as going dry would be - I think that John is talking about those radical changes to the fraternity that don't make it to the GA floor unless the votes are locked. For example, the switch from pledging to associate members - THAT was a BIG shift in the way we operate.

What I see coming is a shift BACK to where fraternities were policy wise - alcohol has not always been a part of the fraternal existence. LXA was dry until sometime in the late 60's, I believe.

I'm not an advocate of going totally dry, but, the more ASU's that happen, the more it will become clear that we simply can't AFFORD not to be dry - that is where the pressure is coming from with several fraternities - and yes, many, like Phi Delts will have major problems getting the initiatives completely implemented - it will take time. Look at LXA and NIU - they still had the pledge philosophy, and I would suspect there are still chapters out there secretly engaged in that practice, not the AM experience we are supposed to do. But, it will make it easier to weed out those chapters that choose not to adopt new measures - it will make internal control more efficient.

It's a part of human nature to be not open to change. But, look where the fraternal world has come from when faced with "life-threatening" challenges: hazing - we've made tremendous progress, all GLO's. There are isolated incidents, but, it's not the widespread "accepted" practice that it once was. The 1960's - Vietnam - everyone kept saying fraternities would phase out with the culture changes the nation was enduring: we're still here. In loco parentis: we survived eliminating that practice. WWI, WWII, when greeks were for the most part shut down: we came back. The most dynamic and exciting thing about brotherhood is that it is adaptable, and overcomes obstacles- even our Ritual teaches that, among other things. I think LXA changing, and allowing alcohol onto chapter property and at events is something that will eventually have to change. Alcohol unfortunately a part of the college experience, but it doesn't necessarily have to be part of the Greek experience - we don't have the monopoly on beer bashes, nor should we: we should be adopting the practice of positive social experiences, not something inherently self-destructive. The ASU case will probably resonate as much as the Rutgers and Iowa State incidents of decades past. We must be willing to admit our mistakes, and sincerely try to mend our ways.

[Tom Earp]

It is a Truism, "Animal House" Partys are out because of the very things mentioned above.

But, partys are equal to drinking. Granted years back most states or a lot of them had 18 as drinking age for beer. Partys are for socializing and relaxing and having fun. Not getting stupid drunk and driving a car or putting date drug in drinks.

But, again with the but, the risk management end of it has cost many Greek Organizations a lot of money.

I was at the chapter one time and there was several lets go out partys going on. Two of the Brothers were there as they were the designated driver for the night! I thought that was fantastic! I did not go party, I went with them to get Brothers back to the house! I got a lot of respect for them that night!

I think "The Going Dry" will pass, but, not to stop drinking per say. It is just saying do not drink in the house or where The Fraternity can be held responsable. Do not let anyone get killed or in a situation where it can happen!

It will come to past!

[chopper816]

Originally posted by Nhfulmer
The reason for going dry is very simple - insurance companies will not cover fraternities who have had big payouts due to law suits unless they have a "dry" policy in place. Without insurance, there can be no fraternity. It is working with some groups. Yes, there are many who disagree and some who refuse to abide by the policy; however, if they do not abide by the policy and there is an incident, the insurance does not cover them. It is just that simple! Would you rather change or see your fraternity go under because of one law suit which is all it would take if the insurance coverage is not there.

id rather not change and look at other alternatives in making sure guys arent stupid, but id bet willing to bet the fraternity becomes small if we go dry, rush will hurt, active retention will hurt. its not either go dry or no coverage, how bout we look at other companies? id explore other options first, so to answer your question, no, at this time, we dont change.

[Tom Earp]

Sorry Bro. but why do you think that Lloyds is THE HIGH RISK Insurance Co?

We at LX Z have looked at a lot of avenues!

Liability, forget it! You wont be touched!

We did our own House Insurance as could shop around.

But for an overall view, Lloyds is The High Risk Co!

That is about it in a nut shell! Do you have your own House Ins. at the Block House In Lincoln??

[LXAAlum]

When did LXA leave FIPG? Or are we still a member of that group that now uses Lloyd's for insurance purposes?

If Lloyd's is the LOWEST cost insurance that LXA and other's were able to get, there are no other alternatives for lower premiums, that's for sure.

[Tom Earp]

LXAAlum, dont know if to many Insurance Companys would touch a Greek Org. In TOTO!

Well for Risk Management anyway!

But for individual Chapter buildings that might be different!

Lloyds has always been for high risk Ins. Of course they damn near went belly for the out lay of cash!

[LXAAlum]

I remember that LXA joined many other fraternities in FIPG in the early 90's. I know that Sigma Chi departed FIPG a few years back, and haven't heard much of FIPG since - just curious if the organization still exists, and if LXA is a member.

[Nhfulmer]

Yes, FIPG still exists. An insurance rep just recently said that it is a ridiculous set up and was slapped together in order to put something on paper that insurance companies could say fraternties/sororities had to adhere to. Lloyds WILL deal - it depends on how good the national officers are who are dealing with them and how many incidents the group has recently had. There are other groups who will insure GLO's; however, premiums are going to be high no matter what. Everyone just has to suck it up and pay -- you can't not have insurance coverage. Anyone who believes that needs to get a grip. Are there any insurance people on here who can speak to this?

[john1082]

That FIPG was cobbled together in haste does not surprise me at all. At the time it went together the Greek community had reacheda point where insurers were slamming the door in our collective face. There was no way for the carriers to access risk and there were absolutely no conduct standards whatsoever.

From a carrier's standpoint it would be like insuring houses sight unseen, wherever they were and regardless of compliance with building codes. Or perhaps insuring drivers without knowledge of car type, location, or driving history.

The risk management standards that we have today flowed from FIPG. The procedures that we have concerning fire, deaths, arrests, etc. all were the result of FIPG and consultations with carriers - as well as some very hard lessons based upon tragedy.

We had to do something and FIPG seemed like the thing to do at the time. I still think that it is a valuable entity and could be more pro-active at times in dealing with things such as chapter house fire safety. I promise you that a burning chapter house is the scariest thing that comes to a chapter advisor's mind!

Without insurance we are collectively pledging our fortunes and that of our families that the undergraduates wil never make a mistake. That is too big a burden to put on the alumni and the families of the undergrads. Why do I say the alumni and families of the undergrads? Because they are the only ones with something to take. A judgment against an undergrad is worthless - try collecting on it years later...

[Nhfulmer]

Amen! You are so right. I was an advisor for many years and my husband is an advisor and a national officer. I have always prayed that we would never be the target of a law suit. The undergraduates need to understand the way it works. Just because they have an insurance policy in place doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. If they don't adhere to the policies, they are putting everyone at risk - including their parents.

[Tom Earp]

Amen to what you both have said!

But sometimes trying to point out the responsability to the Young Men and Women is like blowing smoke in a tornado.

My chapter does a mentoring session each semester to work with and point out not only rushing, marketing, studying, but strong on Risk Management.

We are having a session the 23/24 of this month. The old house is to be torn down by the 18 th! New plans will be shown. But I hope when these are shown, they will understand the responsability that goes a long with it!

As to the Insurance company you are refering to, I never heard of it, so must go a long ways back! We have always done Lloyds to my knowledge! As far as the Chapter House, we go to an out source or our own contact Insurance Co.

[chopper816]

Originally posted by Nhfulmer
Amen! You are so right. I was an advisor for many years and my husband is an advisor and a national officer. I have always prayed that we would never be the target of a law suit. The undergraduates need to understand the way it works. Just because they have an insurance policy in place doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. If they don't adhere to the policies, they are putting everyone at risk - including their parents.

no offense, but if you believe any undergrad group, in any fraternity will fully adhere to the policies, then thats just being naive. for instance, with auto insurance, no one follows their policy to the t, it happens, thats reality.

also, who on here said anything no insurance? howd this go from dry or not dry to insurance/ no insurance?

[Nhfulmer]

I know better than to expect collegiates to adhere to all of the policies - believe me, I'm not naive! However, I do recognize the realities - the insurance policy won't cover an incident if those involved were not within the policies. That is why the nationals have to have a large deductible fund - to not only cover the deductibles but to cover (if possible) what the insurance will not cover. Maybe no one except the national officers who actually deal with this in detail understand the reality but, believe me, it is a fact! If you were referring to not hearing of FIPG, I believe it stands for Fraternal Insurance Purchasing Group and it allowed the member groups to purchase insurance at a lower rate if they agreed to adhere to the policies set forth - which were pretty stringent.

[LXAAlum]

Originally posted by chopper816
no offense, but if you believe any undergrad group, in any fraternity will fully adhere to the policies, then thats just being naive. for instance, with auto insurance, no one follows their policy to the t, it happens, thats reality.

Think about it from the other perspective - the General Fraternity - you could say the same thing - do you think the GF would tolerate a chapter/colony that refuses to adhere to all of the policies? Would they accept that kind of risk? No.

It's not naive - it's reality. Don't buy into the "it can't happen here" or "we've always done it that way, why change?" fallacies - all that will lead to is chaos.

Fraternities have existed as a vehicle to make their members better people by their association. "Builders of men," "integrity," "honor," are not empty phrases, but ideals we SHOULD strive to live by. We have collectively lowered our standards since the early 60's as a matter of survival, in my opinion, and we are now reaping the "benefits" of that strategy.

If we aren't going to abide or adhere to our standards that we were founded on, that haven't changed in almost 90 years, why do we even bother with the Ritual? It's not something to take lightly, by any member.

We as brothers should accept that as fact, yet also realize our members are human, and will make mistakes. But, the line on making mistakes is being drawn differently these days - there are honest "oops" mistakes, and then there are the "common sense should tell you better" or "we have a policy forbidding this - screw it" incidents that are REALLY getting us in trouble.

I have a lot more to contribute on this, but I need to get off the soap box before I reveal things I shouldn't, but, as a brother, I see this all tying back to Ritual, and we aren't doing what we swore to do when we were initiated. That is the root cause of many of our troubles, in my (ahem) humble opinion.