How does Being in the League affected a potential member's chances

[kafromTN]

1] I was correct in calling the war that occured from 1861-1865 the War of Northern Aggression. The reason it is correct is that each state is, as the Declaration of Independence called, "free and independent" Thus if they are free and independent they would have a right to enter into alliances, which is all the Articles of Confederation and later the Constitution of 1787 actually are. With that said, the southern states had every right to annul the alliance, which they did when they seceded from the alliance. The Northern States were informed by the Confederate States that resupplying Fort Sumter would be an act of war. Lincoln resupplied the Fort anyway, thus provoking the War of Northern Aggression.

2] Don't put me in the same category as those who don't believe the Holocaust happened. I know it did based on various sources of reliable information.

3] The lynching argument is invalid as lynching did not only to blacks, it happened to people of any race if you were suspected of commiting a crime and the local population felt you were guilty. It also did not happen in just the south. Slavery was a legal practice authorized by the Constitution of 1787 and permitted by the governments of each state. It can be equated to the various Trusts from the early 20th century that extended credit to employees in order to get them in debt to the corporation so that they can never leave the company, isn't that just like slavery? Nothing is ever mentioned of that, I guess because that happened to a lot of people of a different ethnic persuasion thus they are not important. Beating was a common pratice of that time period for people of any walk of life. The British and American Navies used it for punishment. Criminals were whipped as well, it wasn't just slaves who felt the sting of a bullwhip or cat o' nine tails. Rape did not occur as often as the liberal media [this includes textbook manufacturers] would like you to think. Rape also means "to seize and carry off by force" [referring to being taken from Africa] and some instances where rape is used uses that meaning and has nothing to do with any sexual connotation.

4] "...watch as their master and his prospered.." This is a myth to think that plantation owners made large amounts of money. Most plantation owners barely made ends meet when it came to finances as they had loans that had to be paid.

5] Just an F.Y.I. some of my ancestors were poor antebellum farmers and were sharecroppers after the War of Northern Aggression. So my ancestors did in fact make due with what they could for food and they too lived in shacks.

6] How do you have a "true memory" of the Old South? Were you alive at that time?

7] PrettyNPearls: I resent that you implied I am not educated on this fact. Also were do you get your education from? Do you look at the primary documents and gain an education from that? Do you take what people tell you as fact without questioning the status quo?

8] How does a Confederate uniform represent an ugly past for blacks when free blacks in the south wore it? Do you pick and choose what is offensive or do you again allow others to dictate to you what you should find offensive based on biased information?

9] While my original post could have been worded better, all I was saying is that there could have been a better choice of words to be used in order to be P.C. about it. That's it, everyone else read into it and tried to imply any # of things which are not true. Think about this for a minute, if a NIC fraternity at your school had a quote on their website that stated "any white male interested in our chapter please contact us" or something to that effect, would you not be offended? Remember this is knowing they don't have any rules prohibiting males from other ethnic/cultural groups.

10] Your welcome for livening up your forum as it seems not many people were posting before my inital reply.

[enlightenment06]

kafromTN:

Your post made me smile. You seem to be very informed on the topic

1) Call it whatever you want. Fact of the matter is the southern states didn't want Lincoln as president in first place because he wasn't trying to spread slavery (I will not say he was anti-slavery cuz he wasn't).

2) I was gonna roll with you on that one but...

3) This point made me sit up. To deny the ferocity and brutality Black people faced in the south is almost like doing same as denying the Holocaust happened. And I don't get all my information from textbooks, I get it from my people. Equating U.S. slavery with indentured servitude lacks an examination of the details. With indentured servitude, one was not stripped of their name, family, culture, heritage, and knowledge of self. Also indentured servitude did not make someone legal property (the same as a cow) upon birth based on hertiage and skin color.

4) True. Most slave owners didn't own that many slaves and most did not make a lot of money. Only a few were rich. However, the rest of the whites (even the poor ones) benefitted from the system of slavery from white skin privelege.

5) See #4

6) We have different "memories" because of "our" different experiences.

7) I'll leave that for Pretty

8) That's what happens when you're stripped of your language, culture, heritage, and knowledge of self. And then taught to hate yourself.

9) I really don't care. If XYZ frat only wanted white males, I really wouldn't care. I have Alpha. Check out the signature. I really don't think everyone should care who people take into their PRIVATE organizations, just as long as it doesn't adversely affect the PUBLIC.

10) Not my forum, but ya did put a spark in my day.

Nothing like having an educated discussion where people throw around information instead of personal attacks.

[PrettyNPearls]

Well let me just say this...

I am certainly not impressed with what you have said. So you are able to spit words out from a book or your "primay documents". As for me and my fellow African American sisters and brothers we live with and endure the pain of what your " oh so glorified Old South" has done to us while you sit and bask in its glory and kodak picture memories. And we certainly don't need "primary documents" to know if this part of our past existed or not. Your remarks about slavery is belittling and yes offensive. You are debating a part of "our" past that is still a part of of present and saying, well other people suffered. What's the big deal? Well that's like saying to a Holocaust victim well other people where burned alive before you were and their skin ripped off of their bodies and used for lamp shades too? What the hell?

As for where I went to school, that is none of your business. Ths information is not going to be found in schools? C'mon now. The truth of slavery and the struggles of African Americans will not be found in a book. But you keep on reading your "primay documents" You asked me how do I know what I know? Where we there in your "Old South?" Yes we where and we are still there.

Before I go I must respond to your question #3. And I quote,
"Criminals were whipped as well, it wasn't just slaves who felt the sting of a bullwhip or cat o' nine tails. Rape did not occur as often as the liberal media [this includes textbook manufacturers] would like you to think. Rape also means "to seize and carry off by force" [referring to being taken from Africa] and some instances where rape is used uses that meaning and has nothing to do with any sexual connotation". Being raped is being raped. Who cares if it is sexual or not. Besides is the proof that African Americans come in so many different shades not proof enough that an substantial amount of "sexual" rape occured. Or maybe you are saying that because only a few of our great grandparents were raped that's not enough to really matter? And lastly, I am not interested in what liberal media (including textbooks) would like for me to believe. The truth of the Afican American sturggle will not be found in a book kafromTN. I guess you believe that America was founded by Columbus since it was printed in a book even though the Native Americans were here before he got here?

At any rate, the fact that my African ancestors were raped thus producing children of White and African decent (African Americans) is proved soley by our exitence today. That can not be denied or disputed. Just take a look at our faces. We can debate this all day long but I won't. Honestly your post just shows us that you read a lot. Here is a cookie for bringing life back to the thread Afterall, it was recognition you wanted anyway...

[kafromTN]

Thank you for the compliment and I better be somewhat informed, I've spent good money trying to get an education as a History major. I don't see any sense in attacking the integrity of the person in any sort of debate, I like to stick to facts and avoid emotion.

1] Southerners were against Lincoln because he thought all new states should be free [as you stated he was not anti-slavery, just not for extending it], however the southern states felt the territory should get to choose [popular sovereignty ] whether they were free or not. This was about the state's right to choose how to govern themselves. The tenth admendment of the Constitution of 1787 stated "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." The Constitution does not grant the Federal government the power to dictate on what terms new states are allowed in under. Article IV section 3 states

"New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress."

The Federal government would only be allowed to admit the territory as a state or not admit the territory. They don't have a right to tell the territory they have to be free or they have to be slave. Even if the territory was admitted as a free state, the Federal government had no right to not allow the state to change their laws to become a slave state and vice versa. That was the main cause of the secession of the southern states. That is why the Federal government today doesn't demand states lower the B.A.C. to .08 they will just withhold federal funds if they don't.

2] I'm not sure what you mean by "I was gonna roll with you on that one but..." I assume [which I don't like to do] you were basically referring to #3.

3] I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it has been blown out of proportion. Let me reiterate, I'm not approving of it or saying it wasn't cruel or even saying slavery was a good thing. What I was pointing out was the frequency was not all it was made out to be. Certain groups have agendas to promote their point of view, some of which are to distort facts and sensationalize them [e.g. the Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War two name a ocuple]. That is what many people did on both sides of the argument of slavery, that is why people have to look at primary documents and look at documents written in that time period.

When you say you "get it from my people" from whom do you get it from&how is it presented? I ask because like I commented before some people have certain agendas so they try to cause divides instead of bringing people together. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for instance would have no political power if the various races and ethnic groups got along, and in some cases they try to prevent that. If however you were given the information so that you can decide how to interpret it instead being told how to interpret it, then I will accept that we have differing opinions on the matter [which is fine as sometimes people have various degrees of background information to make a more/less informed interpretation of the information, and by no means am I degrading you]

As far as indentured servants go, they were property for the length of time they were to serve and were brutalized, sexually raped, taken advantage of [lied to about how much time is left in their contract;kidnapped or tricked into coming to the New World], stolen from [any money they earned while an indentured servant belonged to the master, but again it didn't happen with the frequency people like to contend that it did. I do believe, and I could be mistaken, that if a child was born to an indentured servant the servant would be required to do 4-7 more years of service. Indentured servants were predominantly white English citizens so their culture was the same as the colonists;sometimes they didn't have families and that is why they decided to come to the New World;I think name kind of fits in with culture sense indentured servants had Anglican names while slaves had African names [please correct me if that is the incorrect nomenclature]. Not sure about your meaning of knowledge of self, please explain.

4] See, we can agree on something.

5] No response needed.

6] Ok, point taken.

7] Not applicable.

8] You stated "That's what happens when you're stripped of your language, culture, heritage, and knowledge of self. And then taught to hate yourself." Does that also include blacks fighting in the military today? The blacks both free and slave who fought for the Confederacy were loyal to their state and fought for its defense [their was not a huge sense of national pride, instead it was on a state level since they were seen as free and independent].

9] I personally don't care either if certain private orginazations/companies want to exclude people based on race/gender/religious or sexual preference or any other thing because it is their right, but I also disagree with lawsuits being filed against those orginanizations/companies trying to force them to change.

My opinion is that most people take offense too easily. I also feel that if we followed the words of Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" everyone would get along much better. Based on this I also disagree with affirmative action but that is totally a different conversation.

10] I think it is always good to be able to have an educated discussion which ruffles some feathers and gets some people to get riled up, after which everyone gets along as well or better than before because it helps them understand each other. If only everyone could talk with candor about race to get the pent up frustrations of all races out in the open it could alleviate many problems. You have to understand others to get along with them.

[kafromTN]

What is wrong with reading books and gaining knowledge?

[enlightenment06]

1) This is where law goes out the window, and morality ( and emotion) come into play. Any attempt or effort to maintain or spread slavery is seen evil by many African-Americans ( I would say all, but I don't want to speak for everyone). Even if the Constitution did not permit the federal government such powers, you can't expect us to just say "oh well, that's the law." Just as the Constitution regarded Blacks as 3/5 a person for tax reasons. It ties into being taught to hate yourself. How can you tell someone "love the United States, just forget that the foundation of the country is built upon your misery." Doesn't make much sense.

3) I say my people meaning family members who told me how it used to be. I also read books, most notably John Hope Franklin, J.A. Rogers, and Carter G. Woodson. Contrary to Fox News propoganda, Rev. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson do not speak for all of Black America, nor do we follow their "lead". These are not the days of Malcolm and Martin.

As far as knowledge of self goes, that's a whole 'nother thread. Check out "Miseducation of the Negro" by Carter G. Woodson. Also check out "N*gger" by Randall Kennedy. I can suggest more titles if you like.

9) Yeah it would be nice if everyone were treated by the content of their character. Unfortuneately we as Blacks still do not have that luxury. We didn't create race, we didn't create the inherently racist culture of this nation, we didn't create white supremacy or western european world domination. However you have to understand that this is the world we live in and we're trying to, as Talib Kweli said in his song "Get By" (check that out too, and "The Proud", they're off his new album "Quality"- oooh, also check out "Nature of the Threat" by Ras Kass and "Mr. N*igger" by Mos Def off his "Black On Both Sides" Album)

10) I agree.

[enlightenment06]

Also listen to the last verse of "I Know I Can" by Nas

[kafromTN]

First I would like to say thank you for being able to carry on an educated conversation/debate without throwing around personal attacks. I feel this is the only way people can gain a better understanding of others. Also while we may never agree about certain subjects, I believe it is better to communicate with others so that you can understand their feelings and atttitudes about things.

1] My point about this was that I was correct in calling it the War of Northen Agression. I know that some people automatically classify people who refer to it as that as some extremist, which I can assure I am not. I understand what you mean and I agree slavery was immoral, my argument about it was that it was legal and since then has become illegal but we can't change the fact that it was at one time legal. We also shouldn't/can't make an ex post facto law saying it was illegal as that is unconstitutional. On the other hand look at Native Americans, they were brutalized and their land taken from them, most of them got over it.
[F.Y.I. I am enough Native American to pass as a minority but choose not to as I do not feel I am entitled to anything, so please don't make accusations that I am racist etc. Thank you.]

3] Honestly, the "my people" part of it threw me off. I personally have always said my family, although it was kind of funny, before I read this post today someone else used my people when referring to their family and I asked him about it. In their opinions has it [race relations] gotten better since the early 70s? A couple older coworkers of mine [who are black] told me that it has gotten much better, although they would like it to continue getting better. But they are also disappointed in the younger generation because in their opinion the younger generation of blacks are not striving to achieve and want to live a gangster lifestyle.

I know that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson don't speak for the entire black population, just like politicians don't speak for the entire white population. My point was that Jackson and Sharpton do have an agenda to keep some people misinformed and teach them they can't do it without others help, which I think is a bunch of b.s.

Thank you for the suggested reading material, when I get a chance I will probably pick the one up my Woodson up sometime. If you have one by Kennedy, please let me know the isbn #, it would be odd if I started looking up n*gger, don't you agree?

9] I agree the country is inherently racist, but I also think that it is on both sides of the aisle that are racist. Also we as humans are naturally prejudice, we base things on looks from an instinctive level. Things such as female attractiveness are based on instinct [symmetry, hips that can carry a baby etc]. I personally don't think prejudice will ever end, but I do think people shouldn't get as defensive about things as well as try to understand each other and try to get along.

I'm not a big song person, I will try to read the suggested books, but probably won't listen to songs, but if you have the words of the song I will definitely read them.

I feel discriminated against in my daily live. The other day I went into a restaurant to order some food, the cashier was a black female. She was rude to me and conveyed the attitude of disgust of me. I am a fairly pleasant person and I was being very congenial with her so I know I didn't do anything to her. While I was waiting for my food, another black female came in and the cashier was the most plolite person to her, she smiled to her etc. Based on the conversation they didn't know each other [that is what I thought at first, but they sure didn't talk like they knew each other]. The guy who handed me my food was also black and he was as nice as could be to me, so I know I wasnt' being rude. The point of this is that I didn't let someone else ruin my day, I kept a positive attitude and went about my business, because in the long run what difference does a few bad experiences cause? People of all races need to overcome the hatred of others period, this can be done by turning the other cheek and trying to communicate and understand others.


Again I wanted to say thank you for being able to talk with candor about this.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by kafromTN

3] I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it has been blown out of proportion. Let me reiterate, I'm not approving of it or saying it wasn't cruel or even saying slavery was a good thing. What I was pointing out was the frequency was not all it was made out to be. Certain groups have agendas to promote their point of view, some of which are to distort facts and sensationalize them [e.g. the Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War two name a ocuple]. That is what many people did on both sides of the argument of slavery, that is why people have to look at primary documents and look at documents written in that time period.

When you say you "get it from my people" from whom do you get it from&how is it presented?

I don't have the energy to really get into this conversation, but I encourage you to read some Slave Narratives. Henry Louis Gates, the Harvard (I think--I'm doing this from memory--some Ivy League school) professor edited a vloume about a year or so ago.

[kafromTN]

I am going to have to get to that after I read the other 2 suggested items by enlightenment06, or I might get to it after reading one the n*gger one is not a book I am going to look up in the library, so unless someone has the isbn # I probably won't find it.

[enlightenment06]

ISBN #0-375-42172-6

Title: N*gger (without the asterisk of course): The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word

Author: Randall Kennedy

Publisher: Pantheon Books, New York

Year of Publication: 2002

Hardcover Price: $22.00

Let me know what you think of it if you get to it. Slave narratives are also very good. I think "Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass" is a good one and should be in every major library and bookstore.

Have you any suggestions?

[enlightenment06]

Oh yeah, and thanks for the interesting discussion.

[kafromTN]

I think I will try to get that book soon, but imagine me going into the library asking, "excuse me, where's the book N*gg..." I don't I could even finish the sentence before something bad would happen to me.

I'm actually thinking about taking an African-American history class nex spring...this might help me out in there as well.

Your welcome for the discussion.
As well as thank you for the discussion without making personal attacks.

[PrettyNPearls]

I will make ONLY a few points and then I will rest my fingers concerning this post...

1. When trying to find out about the past, books are helpful, but should not be your only source of find information. Always, Always, have multiple sources to gain information so that you can get the facts. Never soley rely on books or documents. People are only going to write what they want people to know. Also, never be afraid to ask questions. Just think if you never posted here what you might not have learned.

2. In my opinion taking African American history would be a great start. You will gain insightful information and expand on your current knowledge. But don't stop there if you are really serious about gaining information.

3. A lot of what African Americans experience both past and present you will find when you listen to music. We sing a lot about our experiences. It is a great release. If don't like to listen to music you will miss out on what we are trying to say, on what we feel, and what we think and where we are going. If you have cable the history channel is great or go to pbs.com or org (not sure which one). This will give an abundant amount of information along with personal narratives of African Americans.

4. As for the book N*gger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word, you could always order the book from Amazon.com and type in the Author's name. The book you are looking for should appear.

5. And lastly, do you want the knowledge so that you can try and make a difference or do you just want to know? It's always good to read and be aware of what is going on but if you are trying to gain knowledge just to say that you know, what is the point? Many people know but do nothing with what they know. KafromTN, good luck in your search and take care.

[starang21]

i know this joint is old as hell.....but what the hell does the civil war have to do with Kappa Alpha Psi?