UD fraternity fights eviction

[DeltaSigStan]

Our TKEs also had their university recognition taken away, and their nationals allow them to continue to operate. They're some cool guys, and from what I hear, they're bigger than the biggest IFC house.

Many thought that all they did was party, but they did pull together a great community service event as well as raised thousands for their charity.

However, they have started fights with IFC on a couple of occasions, and two of their new members were killed last year after a brother retreat in the desert (their car accidently crashed on the way home). The accident had nothing to do with the brothers themselves, but the backlash was that if they weren't operating with no rules and regulations set by the school, this might not have happened.

Overall, TKE is cool, they have our backs when we get into shit too, and most of them are cool guys.

Don't expect them to rejoin IFC anytime soon. If they did, they'd have to expell or at least give alum status to about 110 guys, and start over from scratch.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by zntke711
I guess they don't like that TKE IHQ will stick by our chapters even when others think certain ones should be closed. Plus they probably feel the chapters not recognized by campus have an unfair advanatge because they don't have to follow the school rules other do. Oh well, all the hatin just makes me love TKE more.

Not dogging on TKE as a whole.. but seriously with as many chapters as they have are they supposed to babysit these guys? It's an interesting way of dealing with things that they have. 10 years from now I see two possible paths... #1 ya'll will be the largest NIC type group around bar-none OR you'll be in some financial hurt due to lawsuits.

Only time will be the judge..

[ncstatetke]

I know the TKE's here can be pretty scarey. They just lost their school charter for 2 years for a lot of crazy $hit.

Your spelling is a little "scarey" too

....and ktsnake, you're acting like SN doesn't protect its chapters. I picked up a nice read about the underground SN chapter at U of Oregon when I was at MGCA. Pretty interesting reading material. Nice how the Sigma Nu HQ's swept that incident (Feb. 1, 2003) under the rug. Get off your high horse man, you won't win any popularity contests with an attitude like yours.

[CC1GC]

Originally posted by ktsnake

It just sounds like a case of they got what was coming to them to me. besides, when is the last time you saw TKE IHQ pull a charter?

holy shit, how can you say this?...it's obvious the city (in conjunction with the university) is taking any means to get rid of greek life...they're stretching the laws, 3 days to find somewhere else to live? How is that justified?

[Kevin]

Originally posted by ncstatetke
Your spelling is a little "scarey" too

....and ktsnake, you're acting like SN doesn't protect its chapters. I picked up a nice read about the underground SN chapter at U of Oregon when I was at MGCA. Pretty interesting reading material. Nice how the Sigma Nu HQ's swept that incident (Feb. 1, 2003) under the rug. Get off your high horse man, you won't win any popularity contests with an attitude like yours.

Not trying to win a popularity contest (obviously).

I'm not denying that my own organization has never done anything wrong. I know of at least one chapter that's not recognized by the school that is still recognized by HQ (I think FSU is like that or was). They take it on a case by case basis. HOWEVER, I know that if the school pulled our recognition that we'd very very likely lose our charter.

How could we lose the school's recognition? By being *convicted* of:

Hazing, maintaining extremely low GPA's, serving alcohol to minors etc...

All of it in my opinion is considered "high risk behavior".

Now if you want to PM me, I'll tell you why the TKE chapter here is no longer recongized. For what they've done (and continue to do) they are pretty much just asking for something serious to happen.

An example of another organization's handling something different from the way TKE deals with chapters: there was a KS chapter that was convicted of hazing, some kid got seriously injured (alcohol was involved). They didn't close the chapter, BUT they said they were going to require the house to go dry and raise their insurance premiums. The chapter CHOSE to close.

Sounds like they were there for the wrong reasons.

I'm not against standards that make sure your members are there for the right reasons.

It upsets me because the actions of any GLO reflect on all of the rest. Joe Student doesn't know Sigma Nu from Kappa Sigma to TKE ("it's all Greek to them "). So when you know one organization is a liability and really has nothing to worry about from continuing their behavior.. well it's not good for anyone.

[The1calledTKE]

Originally posted by ktsnake
OR you'll be in some financial hurt due to lawsuits.

Lawsuits happen just as much to eveyone even if recogonized by the school. I don't see how being recognized by the school would affect the number of lawsuits. It's not like the school tries to protect the fraternties , they just try to get rid of them.

[rushqueen44]

Campus recognition doesn't affect whether or not you get sued, but it can affect whether or not you win.

If the campus does not recognize the chapter because they engage in dangerous behavior, the national organization is rolling the dice by keeping them open.

Say someone gets hurt. The parent's sue the GLO. A GLO's best defense is "we didn't know it was going on...we did our best to ensure that it didn't happen...etc." If the campus doesn't recognize the group, then it's pretty obvious to the jury that somebody knew what was going on in the group.

The GLO's defense is shot. Hence, lots of scary lawsuits that the GLO will lose.

Getting sued is expensive. Getting sued and losing could break you.

[madmax]

Originally posted by rushqueen44
Campus recognition doesn't affect whether or not you get sued, but it can affect whether or not you win.

If the campus does not recognize the chapter because they engage in dangerous behavior, the national organization is rolling the dice by keeping them open.

Say someone gets hurt. The parent's sue the GLO. A GLO's best defense is "we didn't know it was going on...we did our best to ensure that it didn't happen...etc." If the campus doesn't recognize the group, then it's pretty obvious to the jury that somebody knew what was going on in the group.

The GLO's defense is shot. Hence, lots of scary lawsuits that the GLO will lose.

Getting sued is expensive. Getting sued and losing could break you.

That might make sense except for the fact that all the members of the fraternity in question are in good standing with the university.

[madmax]

Originally posted by OUKate
Can you give an example? Unless I can hear some evidence, I'm going to have to side with KTSnake and PSK480 -- I've never heard of TKE pulling a charter.

I'm not sure how I feel about this -- it seems to be a zoning issue, and the laws seem to be reasonable. Though, if the property just has zoning status as a fraternal organization and it doesn't specify whether or not the fraternity in question must be recognized, then they've definitely got a case. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out -- I'm sure lots of universities with unrecognized chapters still operating (Many of which are TKE chapters) are paying attention.

TKE pulls charters all the time. I read somewhere it is about 10 a year. I respect the fact that they stand behind chapters unlike some nationals. Universities are always trying to get rid of fraternities and sometime the reasons are bullshit. A few years ago, Stevens Tech( NJ) asked SPE to pull a chapter's charter because of a noise violation. That's a joke.

[rushqueen44]

That might make sense except for the fact that all the members of the fraternity in question are in good standing with the university.

What's your point?

When a chapter loses campus recognition, in my experience that has little bearing on the individual member's standing with the institution.

Do you have an example of an instance where an institution revoked campus recognition and then kicked every member of the fraternity out of school?

Someone help me out here...

[rushqueen44]

I respect the fact that they stand behind chapters unlike some nationals.

Question:

Are they standing behind a group of men who make values-based decisions, contribute in a significant way to the campus environment and maintain high organizational standards...

or are they hiding behind "freedom of association" as a means of keeping a source of revenue open?

[Kevin]

Let me sum up what I've been saying...

Inter/National orgs have to change the way they look at chapters as the time goes by. Each chapter is seen as an investment. Just like with any investment there are good ones and bad ones -- some degree of risk is always involved.

Risk means lawsuits... What is the risk vs. the money coming in to pay the insurance premiums? Insurance is probably (no hard figures to back this up but I'd gather as much) the #1 expense of inter/national fraternities.

All I said is that I think TKE is taking a different approach to this problem. They are choosing to ignore the risk that has been identified by others from the outside of these chapters looking in -- they identify the risk by pulling their support for the existance of the organization on their campus. TKE has decided that it is better to try to maintain the financial/manpower input from organizations that others have deemed to be 'at risk'.

I see two possible outcomes if this behavior continues unchanged:

#1. They grow and prosper.
#2. They are sued or their premiums raise high enough to put them out of existance because they allow chapters that are known to be high-risk to continue to operate unabated.

Regardless of what you think only time will be the judge of whether this strategy works or not. If it works, I'd hope to see more inter/national groups follow suit (and they'd be smart to). I think that in these new times though everyone else is just playing it safe.

[PSK480]

Originally posted by rushqueen44
Campus recognition doesn't affect whether or not you get sued, but it can affect whether or not you win.

If the campus does not recognize the chapter because they engage in dangerous behavior, the national organization is rolling the dice by keeping them open.

Say someone gets hurt. The parent's sue the GLO. A GLO's best defense is "we didn't know it was going on...we did our best to ensure that it didn't happen...etc." If the campus doesn't recognize the group, then it's pretty obvious to the jury that somebody knew what was going on in the group.

The GLO's defense is shot. Hence, lots of scary lawsuits that the GLO will lose.

Getting sued is expensive. Getting sued and losing could break you.

This is very true for us right now. Our national HQ is being sued for a pledge death at U of MD. The charter was removed after an investigation. If the insurance company can settle out of court then we don't have to worry about going under. But, if it goes to trial and they rule against HQ it could break us.

[madmax]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Let me sum up what I've been saying...

Inter/National orgs have to change the way they look at chapters as the time goes by. Each chapter is seen as an investment. Just like with any investment there are good ones and bad ones -- some degree of risk is always involved.

Risk means lawsuits... What is the risk vs. the money coming in to pay the insurance premiums? Insurance is probably (no hard figures to back this up but I'd gather as much) the #1 expense of inter/national fraternities.

All I said is that I think TKE is taking a different approach to this problem. They are choosing to ignore the risk that has been identified by others from the outside of these chapters looking in -- they identify the risk by pulling their support for the existance of the organization on their campus. TKE has decided that it is better to try to maintain the financial/manpower input from organizations that others have deemed to be 'at risk'.

I see two possible outcomes if this behavior continues unchanged:

#1. They grow and prosper.
#2. They are sued or their premiums raise high enough to put them out of existance because they allow chapters that are known to be high-risk to continue to operate unabated.

Regardless of what you think only time will be the judge of whether this strategy works or not. If it works, I'd hope to see more inter/national groups follow suit (and they'd be smart to). I think that in these new times though everyone else is just playing it safe.

KT. How come all the Sigma Nu chapters that were accused of hazing the past couple of months were innocent until proven guilty but this chapter is guilty until proven innocent? I think you have a double standard.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=30993

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=30187

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=30184

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=32372

PS. Isn't Sigma Nu one of the other underground fraternities at UD?

[PSK480]

Madmax, the point that KTSnake has been trying to make is that the TKE chapter was found guilty of these violations.