E mail transcript between a chapter president and the father of a pledge

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92
We do purchase kegs with house funds and most of us drink

Um, isn't it against most (if not all) policies to use house/chapter money for the purchase of alcohol?

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92 We've never seen alcohol as an essential way to achieve
this goal and I have completely banned its use and even presence with the
pledges.
...Alcohol is involved with our house on the weekends, but
is strictly optional.

So does this mean that when your chapter is throwing a party (keg included), your pledges aren't invited? That's not nice. . .

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92 I know I am legally responsible for anything that could go wrong
with pledging I would never support forced drinking

He alluded to being a law student. . .I didn't expect a future lawyer to say that.

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92 The house budget, with the pool of dues comes to the following, 9,000
per semester for rush, 9,000 for parties, 1,000 for philanthropy, 2,000 for
house upkeep.

Dang, that's a lot of partying!!!

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92 So, I have two questions for you. Your answer is not confidential. State U.
officials or law enforcement officers might see it.

"As President and a brother I have vowed to hold secret the things that take place in our brotherhood . . . good and bad. Secrecy is something that each of us holds very dear and we are all very disappointed if something gets out that should have remained within the brotherhood. I would clearly tell you anything that is public information, but as for things that take place amongst members of our house, I will not break the oath which I so willingly gave."

[1] In the past four years, has your chapter been accused of or found
responsible for any act of hazing, as State U. defines hazing?

If the answer was YES, wouldn't that be public knowledge and not secret? If they were actually charged, found guilty, and put on probation (or other restrictions) wouldn't that be noted by the university and therefore be easily verifiable? If the answer was actually NO, I think the president could have said that without breaking any sort of secrecy oath. What do they do when rushees ask something like "do you guys haze?" Do they say "Well, we took an oath of secrecy, etc.?" I felt like he purposefully (and obviously) dodged that one

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92 [2] As State U. defines hazing, is your fraternity engaging in any form of
hazing directed toward the current pledge class or any of its members?

Once again, if the answer was a true NO, how can that violate an oath of secrecy? Wouldn't that be a question you would be proud to answer NO to?

AND. . .didn't you also take an oath to uphold and abide by your fraternities ideals and values?

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92 Whenever the pledges are around the house together our pledge instructor,
myself and our vice president are required to be there the entire time.

Did that sound like an unusual requirement to anyone else but me? Do you trust your brothers (and your pledges to stand up for themselves) that little? Or do you teach your pledges to do what a brother says, and therefore you CAN'T ensure that the pledges will stand up for themselves against a brother, drunk or not?

I just wanted to point those things out. Maybe I'm too analytical, but I enjoy it.

[BSUPhiSig'92]

Doesn't the requirement that the pledge instructor, president and vice-president have to be present whenever the pledges are, sound like something that would be required after a previous hazing sanction? It just strikes me as odd also.

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by BSUPhiSig'92
Doesn't the requirement that the pledge instructor, president and vice-president have to be present whenever the pledges are, sound like something that would be required after a previous hazing sanction? It just strikes me as odd also.

That's what I was thinking. Hence the inability to answer the first question.
(Yes, I'm speculating. I enjoy doing that too!!)

[Kevin]

A good lesson to be learned from this:

There are 3 pages of simple speculation based on what this pres had to say. Obviously, he wasn't crafting his message very well. He should have known from previous communications with this parent that the parent would not be placated with ambiguities. I don't think that (without lying) the pres had a chance in satisfying this parent so he should not have added fuel to the fire.

Would have been much better to write an "I'm sorry you feel that way" letter.

[James]

I wonder how changed around this was? It reads like two academics writing to each other.

[Tom Earp]

One must remember, that all of these people are "young Adults", YOUNG being the key word.

As a pledge of a local that went National while I was there, was the oldest person in the Fraternity.

I still tried to respect the Actives and did what was asked. There was no hazing as we know it today. Sat., house cleaning day, common areas only. No paddleing, drinking, push-ups, etc.

When I started my Local, I founded it on the same principle, no hazing as we knew it then.

Most did not tell their parents just as I didnt. (DeltaAlum). All who go away to college feel that they are adults, of course which most are not. Being put under the strain of going away/being on their own for the first time and joining a Greek Org. is a plate full for anyone.

What is interesting is two fold:

It does sound like two academia writing letters back and forth. To well laid out, with the questions and the gitty-up two step answers.

Sounds like a set up situation to me. The admitting of having alcohal was to pat and the party budget extremly high. How many Chapters can afford that with the budgets shown?

A side note, I was standing on the deck of our the House 3 years ago for Homecoiming.

A couple came up on the deck looking for their son, J, who was at the time our President. I knew of his back ground and the strictness of his parents. They were totally against him joining a Fraternity. He was a Senior, so was Graduating at the end of the year.

With @ 30 of the Brothers standing there, they presented him with his first ever LXA Badge for an early Graduation present. I knew exactly how much that Badge cost, and it was not one of the less expensive Badges. These were not well to do people, but a Farm family that were very close with money.

J was flaborgasted along with all of the Brothers on the deck. The smile on my Broters face and his parents who were so proud of him were priceless and said it all.


As I have seen many times and I am sure, that all will agree, that being a large, long standing local, does not mean a thing. If there is hazing, how long has it gone on? I have seen this brought up about most of the Greek Organizations via the list server that I and some others get information on.

We, such as KTsnake and myself abhor seeing a Chapter having its Charter revoked and disavowed by the Shool. Yes it does go on even though it is written in our National Bylaws does happen. That is very sad. I think while this email is made up, it does ring true. Now, that is the sad part.

[Senusret I]

Just to throw in the mix.....

For some organizations, pledging/new member education/membership intake IS sacred and is not to be discussed, so I can see where some organizations consider the discussion of pledging as off limits.

This doesn't really address the original post, but I just wanted to make sure that people know that each org does things differently.

[Little E]

It is way shady.
That guy knows he doing something wrong.

But I will say that I do agree some pledge activities are secret to some groups. Ours are all open, but we have a fraternity that covers EVERY window in their house. They have kids depledge for the most messed up stuff ever. It is sick and disgusting. I don't think they've redone the pledge program since the 50s. If you aren't willing to do it in the open (some obvious exceptions- ritual/ceremonies) then you shouldn't be doing it. If you can't answer a concerned parent's questions, you shouldn't be doing it. It really is just a bit of common sense.

[Munchkin03]

The father should let go. Hopefully, he has taught his son well and he won't bow to peer pressure. Little Michael's a man now--and Daddy should realize that. I imagine my parents were concerned about the same things, but realized that I was an adult, they raised me to be a strong independent woman who knew when to ask for help, and that things would work out.

Beckett Smith...HA!

[James]

[] Has this parent overstepped his bounds? Won't his son learn more by
handling the situation himself?

The parent isn't overstepping his bounds as being naturally curious. The parent is risking damaging his relationship with his son by holding the power to cut off the son's tuition to compell his son's obedience. Control seems to be the issue.

The son definitely has the opportunity to learn more if he deals with the situation himself. Whether he does learn anything is another matter.

[] Do students and their parents have an accurate understanding of the risks
and benefits of fraternity life? Do they know the right questions to ask?
How can college administrators better inform them?

Do college administrators warn parents about the dangers of Sports participation? Possible hazing, lowering of grades, physical exhaustion etc? Or the possible long term consequences to health such as repetitive stress damage to knees, backs and other joints in the body, especially from contact sports? Many are the people who carry some lifelong injury from college play.

The same thing applies to Greek Organizations. What would they warn? That some bad things might result? And that some good things might result? But that it would all depend on the experience of the individual student?

If they knew of a specific and certain problem that would cause sometype of injury to a student they would take action.

In the absence of that the only thing that they could so was put out a pamphlet such as a truthful FAQ.



[/quote]
[] Do university administrators have any responsibility to ask fraternity
leaders the kinds of questions this parent asked? If administrators don't
ask such questions (and verify the answers) are they helping fraternities
mislead prospective members and families?
[/quote]

Yes the University should maintain such a relationship with Greek Organizations that such questions would be known.

However these questions aren't asked or answered in a vacuum. They will be influenced by the type of relationship that the Administration with its Greek Organization.

There seems to be three basic categories of University involvement in Greek Life:

(1.) Active promotion. where the University extends a lot of support and resources similar to what they woul do for other active clubs, organizations, or ports teams.

(2.) Passive neutrality, where the administration gives token support and only comes on the scene as a disciplinarian.

(3.) And active hostility where the administrative climate has become such that administrators actively seek to find fault in Greek Organizations and tend to punish by immediate removal of recognition.

All three categories of university would ask those questions in a different way and might expect very different answers because of their relationship with their fraternites and sororities.

If Universities want to be more sure of Greek practices they will have to look to the quality of their relationship with those organizations, from the organizations' points of view.

In the case of this parent and his son, not only did he not trut his son to make the right decisions while involved in the process of pledging, he didn't trust his son to stop pledging because he asked him. He forced him through the threat of stopping tuition payments.

Would the lack of trust in such a relationship inspire the son to deception?

As a metaphor we should apply this situation back to the relationship between a University and its Greek Organizations. It might teach an object lesson.

[] Can this exchange of correspondence be used in training or orientation
exercises on your campus? If so, how?

Not the way the letter stands by itself. You would have to seperate out the issues. Although the letters themselves come across as a teaching document, not a series of candid and spontaneous emails. Even if these emails were actually written this way, most intellegent college students would find them to seem contrived.




Send us your thoughts about any or all of these questions by Monday April
21. If we have enough responses we'll publish them next week. Our address:
gpavela@umd.edu.

[KillarneyRose]

BECKETT SMITH?!?!?!?!

That's so funny! I just hope that young "Michael" pays his fees with cold, hard cash and not rubber checks

[LXAAlum]

[1] In the past four years, has your chapter been accused of or found responsible for any act of hazing, as State U. defines hazing?
[2] As State U. defines hazing, is your fraternity engaging in any form of hazing directed toward the current pledge class or any of its members?

Isn't one litmus test of this the old saying (or variation thereof): "If you would be ashamed to tell your parents what you had to go through, it would be hazing."

There is nothing I would have been ashamed of telling my parents, but I am bound by the oath not to divulge secrets, as most members are - that becomes a problem in and of itself.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by James
I wonder how changed around this was? It reads like two academics writing to each other.

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought: there's no freaking WAY these are reproduced in the exact form the letters took (minus name changes) . . .

They fit every do/don't scenario exactly to a T, not much gray area involved, making me think that it was a training exercise that was passed off as fact.

However, that doesn't make it any less valuable as a training exercise . . .

[33girl]

OK, I thought that since I was a mod all the mystical secrets of GC would be revealed to me, but apparently not. What is so mo-foing funny about the name Beckett Smith???

[KillarneyRose]

S,
I'm PMing you and all mysteries shall be revealed (or at least this one! lol)

T.