Quota, Limit, and the Single Bid System

[PSK480]

33: Thanks for explaining things clearly to me without flaming. Now that I understand how it works I see it is a better system for women to follow. The explanation given to me before by our Greek Life Advisor, I now realize, was extremely biased against the system.

I didn't want to find out about it just to tear it down, I wanted genuine information and opinions about it. The reason I said in the past the system seemed assinine to me was because of how screwed up it was become on my campus and how uneven alot of the houses are. You have houses of 60 and then houses at like 25 or 11.

I am sorry for any hard feelings I have caused anyone. I usually try to remain open minded about things.

[MSKKG]

PSK480, I tried to PM you, but your box was full.

[FuzzieAlum]

Sorry I jumped on you. We get a lot of questions about that on here, but that's not your fault. As everyone's mom says, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." I'm still working on that one.

[PSK480]

It's ok, I think everyone on greek chat needs to work on that one. After finding out more about the sorority rush system I'm starting to wondering if my campus is administering it in the totally correct way, if that made any sense. I'm sure it is run properly in some areas but others I'm not so sure about.

[fire1977]

PSK480, I advise the DPhiE chapter there and no they aren't doing everything recruitment wise exactly "by the book", but I don't think most campus' are. Example, I still don't know who is doing bid matching for them, they don't have a chapter advisor and collegiates aren't supposed to sit in on bid matching.

[PSK480]

Fire: I knwo shawn does it, but I'm not sure if he has anyone else sit in on it. It just irks me a little that he lectures us about accountability and doing things by the book, and we are always getting lectured when we do something wrong and what not. But, who holds him accountable for the mistakes he makes or what happens when he doesn't do things by the book?

[33girl]

Originally posted by PSK480
Fire: I knwo shawn does it, but I'm not sure if he has anyone else sit in on it.

wasn't there a grad assistant there who was an alum from one of the sororities? is she gone?

the problem is, most of the advisors (except for Jamie B) are not Greek and they don't really understand the process. I think when Gayle was our advisor she went down with our rush chair and observed, but if there would have been an infraction or screwup I don't think she would have realized it.

[PSK480]

Karen graduated from the grad program, she is a PSS. I don't think the grad student now is greek and they have her split between 2 or 3 offices.

[paulaKKG]

I have to jump in here and give a long rant about the sorority bid system, or at least the way some folks abuse it.

I actually think the one-bid system is the best system. It does the most good for the most number of people, and I think it keeps most houses from dying off. It's not perfect, but I don't think many other (formal) systems could do better. Like MSKKG said a few posts back, many rushees get multiple bids, the the "final" bid they see is to the house they "A-listed." To me, that says it works.

However, the reason I don't like the current system is that not all houses play fair. Some houses abuse the current system, and would abuse a two-bid system given a chance. They would give bids to more people than they wanted to accept just to make sure they made total.

I'm not going to name names because I know its a different story on every campus, and houses and people change year to year.
But here's what I used to see: Some houses just want numbers, by any means necessary.

For example, one year Rho Chis from a house, let's call them ABC, told all the rushees that my house had a reputation for being selective, and that they should be wary of returning to our parties. Selective? Yes we are, but with good reason. We have strict academic requirement, so we drop anyone that doesn't meet it first round. It's not fair to string someone along if you can't give them a bid. There is a way for us to make exceptions, but it is very rare. (aside: same ABC Rho Chis also told people that the local GLO on campus was not a "real sorority", Did I mention our panhel advisor was an alum from their house who "dismissed' all complaints about them? but I digress)

Now the ABC house has a similar academic policy. However, they don’t drop people until third party. In fact, ABC is far more selective than us, and they are far crueler about it. We're the most selective house for 1st, 2nd party, but once we invite someone back to third, unless we discover they are an axe murderer, we usually invite them to final party. We think this means we string along the least number of people, and it lets us really get to know the people we are very interested in. I'm not saying that's for everyone, but it works for us.

Well an ABC sister admitted to me that they intentionally invite people back to second, third party who they don't want, and sometimes they invite girls who they can NEVER GIVE A BID to (scholarship requirements, right?). I have nothing wrong with houses not being as selective in the early parties, but this house is different. They're just as selective as we are, except no matter how much they "select out" girls, they always invite back the maximum number, even if that means inviting girls they have already "dropped." For instance, before third party they select girls they will invite to final, then the invite back as many people as they can anyway. Only if girls don't attend their 3rd party do any of the "b" list girls get bumped up and invited to final. And, before final party, they decide who will get a bid from them (And none of those "b" girls are on the list). Final party has absolutely no bearing on selection for them, some of the girls they invite will never be given a bid - they're just party fodder. Why? They want to be sure their parties look the most popular.

(Side note: The year the Rho Chi nonsense happened, we made quota, got half the girls from ABCs A-list, and had an awesome pledge class. Call it karma. I still think they play dirty)

Another house I know, let's say XYZ, has dropped people second party (After breaking all sorts of rush rules by telling the girl that they are the only house that really wants her). Then after dropping, they give the girl a snap bid when not enough people they bid accepted. Our panhel rules let houses invite back lots of people after second party, which is often well over HALF of the people still in rush. Would you really want to be in a house that doesn't think you're even in the top HALF of rushees? sheesh. The sad thing is the poor girl was so upset that XYZ lied to her, that she didn't attend anyone’s party - even though she was invited to three final parties. (which is why she was eligible for a snap bid). It also happens that the girls' RA is in XYZ house, and she makes sure that the other snap bids left under the door "disappeared" except the XYZ bid. (See, they tell the girl, we were the only ones that wanted you). I don't even think I have to mention this, but they later made the girls' life so miserable she de-activated. How unfair to the girl - I think she would have been mcuh happier elsewhere, if given the chance to look.


Anyway, long rant but I just have to say this - some houses behave with integrity, others will always play dirty. The one-bid system and the formal rush system exists to ensure (most of the time) parity remains. It's not perfect. But it's objectives are good: Give all rushees a chance to see all houses on a level playing field, give all houses a chance to select fairly, allow decisions based on mutual selection, make sure most girls going through rush are given a bid.

I hate to be the one to air dirty laundry like this, because it reflects poorly on the system as a whole. So my message is this: 99% of Greek organizations are outstanding. The system isn’t “bad”, some people just abuse it, break the rules, and hurt the rest of us when they do so. I've known a girl accept the bid for her second choice house go on to become president of it. That house really wanted her, treated her well, and she became a great leader for them. Better that than a house that gives bids to people they don't want then treats them like sloppy seconds.

So what's the problem here, the system, or the bad apples?

Panhellenically,
Paula

[MSKKG]

paulaKKG, your story makes me shudder because I know it's true. I've seen it happen on other campuses as well. As flawed as our system might be, I agree with you that it works best for NPC.

If these groups are toying with these freshmen's feelings BEFORE they join, how much of a sisterhood could they really have? It's selfish and cruel to just want the numbers and not try to find sisters. If the sisterhood is there, the numbers will follow. There are some things that can't be faked.

I have heard rumors told about the Kappa chapter at USC, like we won't have a house, etc. They are absolutely unfounded; in fact, we WILL be in our house at the beginning of August whereas some of the ones spreading the rumors will be lucky if they get in theirs by the end of the semester!

The freshmen going through recruitment are trying to position themselves in a new environment, so those kinds of rumors could be the kiss of death, even if the PNM likes the GLO being dissed. I could get writer's cramp going off on this topic, so I'll just stop!

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by paulaKKG
Another house I know, let's say XYZ, has dropped people second party (After breaking all sorts of rush rules by telling the girl that they are the only house that really wants her). Then after dropping, they give the girl a snap bid when not enough people they bid accepted. Our panhel rules let houses invite back lots of people after second party, which is often well over HALF of the people still in rush. Would you really want to be in a house that doesn't think you're even in the top HALF of rushees? sheesh. The sad thing is the poor girl was so upset that XYZ lied to her, that she didn't attend anyone’s party - even though she was invited to three final parties. (which is why she was eligible for a snap bid). It also happens that the girls' RA is in XYZ house, and she makes sure that the other snap bids left under the door "disappeared" except the XYZ bid. (See, they tell the girl, we were the only ones that wanted you). I don't even think I have to mention this, but they later made the girls' life so miserable she de-activated. How unfair to the girl - I think she would have been mcuh happier elsewhere, if given the chance to look.

I don't think that the first part of this is necessarily a terrible thing -- it might just be the sorority acknowledging that they made a mistake during formal rush, or that they didn't feel like they got to know her well enough during formal rush or something like that. But you're right, when the system starts to get abused, that's when we have problems. I have a friend who rushed at a small liberal arts university with three sororities. Total is around 55, but quota is usually around 10, and they have deferred rush, all of which leads to the fact that no group is ever at total. This can lead to a lot of dirty rushing. When my friend rushed, her favorite group was the biggest group, ABC. ABC already knew that they were going to make total, so they told a bunch of girls, including my friend, to suicide ABC after Prefs and that they would snap bid them the week after rush. That is exactly what happened, and my friend is now a happy member of ABC. At the time, neither she nor I knew that what ABC told her to do was against the rules (she was a rushee, and I hadn't rushed yet). And I think that's part of the problem -- the PNMs are the ones being affected by the rules, and if the PNMs don't KNOW the rules, then infractions don't get reported.

I think one thing that everybody's missing is the fact that, unless you decide to have a free-for-all rush with no rules whatsoever, rules are ALWAYS going to get broken. During informal rush here, XYZ offered a rushee a bid two parties before they were technically allowed to because they were afraid they were going to lose her to another group. Fortunately, the infraction was overheard by another sorority member and reported, and the rushee in question did not take XYZ's bid -- ultimately, XYZ lost her to the group that they were afraid they were going to lose her to. And there was just a post in the rush forum about total rules being broken during COB-ing. So it's not formal rush that's the problem -- it's when the rules aren't enforced or carried out fairly, and this applies to formal rush, informal rush, COB, whatever. I think formal rush just gets more than its share of "bad press" because there are SO many more rules in formal rush; therefore there are more rules to break.

[MSKKG]

sugar and spice, I agree with you also about the PNMs not knowing when a rule has been broken. Maybe the rules could be included in the recruitment info as a start to fixing the problem. I also agree that the rules must be consistently enforced.

However, I think paulaKKG was referring to the sneakiness of XYZ, not the fact that someone who pledged decided to drop her membership. Mistakes are made and women pledged who are not a good fit for the GLO, but to do what was described is unconscionable. That's abuse of the system if ever I heard of it.

[MoxieGrrl]

Excellent points, paulaKKG!

With what you said about a chapter possibly abusing a two-bid or even open bid system by handing out more bids than they had spots...I think there was a perfect example of this on the rush forum. A GC'ers (sorry, I forgot the thread starter!) system had a house who "accidentally" bid 3 more girls than they were allowed. It wouldn't be fair the extra 3 girls to take back their bids...after all, they don't know the way things work! It seems the Green Book prevents the chapter from getting in any real trouble.....

So what can we do? Stick with the one bid system, catch chapters who break the rules before they have a chance and if all else fails, hope the rule-breaking chapter screws up on something where they can be punished.

[FuzzieAlum]

I'm curious ... how much rule breaking do the guys in IFC groups see? They still do have some rules, like on my campus they could not give out bids before a certain day in the fall, there couldn't be alcohol at rush events, contact with to-be frosh over the summer was verboten, etc. So - guys, do you ever feel like the other houses on campus are "playing dirty"? Because we don't hear about it as much.

I get the sense (and this could be totally off-base) that even in totally informal Panhellenic rush that is really the same as guys' rush, there is a lot more "dirty rush" going on.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally posted by MoxieGrrl
Excellent points, paulaKKG!

With what you said about a chapter possibly abusing a two-bid or even open bid system by handing out more bids than they had spots...I think there was a perfect example of this on the rush forum. A GC'ers (sorry, I forgot the thread starter!) system had a house who "accidentally" bid 3 more girls than they were allowed. It wouldn't be fair the extra 3 girls to take back their bids...after all, they don't know the way things work! It seems the Green Book prevents the chapter from getting in any real trouble.....

So what can we do? Stick with the one bid system, catch chapters who break the rules before they have a chance and if all else fails, hope the rule-breaking chapter screws up on something where they can be punished.

Interesting, because it was my thread, and when I brought it up, I got a lot of flack for saying I thought there should be a punishment.

Sorry, back to the topic at hand...