Why I will never support Bush

[Cloud9]

Ok, if you can tell me exactly how OUR government knows, and EVERYone else doesn't know what's going on, I'd really like to know. Keep in mind that all of these nations that oppose war know firsthand what it's like to experience war in their own land within the last century. They realize in the most intimate way what war does to a nation, and the domino effects that follow. I would really be interested to know how much war support there would be if we were holding the battles right here in the US, rather than witnessing it in our living rooms...and I believe you claim you don't even want to do THAT...interesting how those who want war can't bear to know just what it is they're asking for...but I digress. I just want to know why you think that we are soooo much more informed than everyone else. I'm not going to trust Bush just because he's the head of the country I live in. That would be the same as the French trusting their leaders just for the same reason. At some point, it has to be more than blind trust. If someone's going to wage a war, spending my money, and my neighbor's lives, I want to KNOW, I don't want to TRUST. As they say, faith is blind.

[James]

I don't believe that hussein ever admited to having a nuclear weapon? nor do I believe we ever claimed he did.

As for trusting our government. Well thats a tough one. First of all there is no Mr. Government, we are talking about a whole bunch of individuals that interact and make policy.

Individuals can lie, or mislead to get their way? Can't they?

Governments deal in propaganda. They really don't want to present a fair and unbiased report. They want to shape the report to get the desired reaction froim the people.

In effect, the goverment is a bunch of advertisers that want to get their selling point across.

Don't advertisers frequently gloss over some of the less beneficial aspects of their proucts?

Always listen for what the people are actually saying and what they mean . . .

Originally posted by alfuzzxi
. Atleast North Korea can say they have nuclear weapons, how long did it take for Hussein to finally admit they had them.

That is why we have to trust our government. They know and have so much more information about these two countries. If they feel that it is more necessary to go after Iraq than North Korea, then that is what we have to do.

[alfuzzxi]

Originally posted by Cloud9
Ok, if you can tell me exactly how OUR government knows, and EVERYone else doesn't know what's going on, I'd really like to know. Keep in mind that all of these nations that oppose war know firsthand what it's like to experience war in their own land within the last century. They realize in the most intimate way what war does to a nation, and the domino effects that follow. I would really be interested to know how much war support there would be if we were holding the battles right here in the US, rather than witnessing it in our living rooms...and I believe you claim you don't even want to do THAT...interesting how those who want war can't bear to know just what it is they're asking for...but I digress. I just want to know why you think that we are soooo much more informed than everyone else. I'm not going to trust Bush just because he's the head of the country I live in. That would be the same as the French trusting their leaders just for the same reason. At some point, it has to be more than blind trust. If someone's going to wage a war, spending my money, and my neighbor's lives, I want to KNOW, I don't want to TRUST. As they say, faith is blind.

Ok, I dont' mean that our government knows more than other governments, I meant they have more information that they do not necessarily share with the Ameircan people. There is no way that they are able to keep us informed on every minute detail, and we dont' need to know every minute detail. We elect our leaders to lead us.
I'm a little confused by your comment about me saying i don't want to witness the war. I don't remeber saying anything like that. I have no problem seeing the effects of war. It's sad, but it's gonna happen. As far as battle happening here- yea, i'm sure the war would lose some support because a lot of people are not willing to take a stand and fully support themselves. I would be awful if it happened here, but if it happened it happened. There have been wars fought here before. And who is to say that something might not happen here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more terroist attempts.

[James]

I think what has also been said time and again is that the what the president is claiming as the reasons for War and his approach to going to war has been deceiving.

He might not actually come out and lie, but he will imply things that are not as likely to be true.

Hence the contradictions pointed out in the first post.

[alfuzzxi]

I may be a little too trusting, but I don't think it's necesarily so bad if things are glossed over. Sadly there are a lot of ignorant uneducated people out there and they don't need to know all of the details of every little thing. Our government is filled with specialists on many different topics. Don't they know a lot more than a common citizen.

[James]

Well yes. I mean we are speaking in generalities here . . . so yes there are definitely specialists that know more about specific topics than the average citizen lol.

And there are ignorant uneducated people in the US that definitely respond to sound bites, emotional rhetoric, and don't remember information from last week let alone last year.

ITs not the details that are being glossed over per se . . .

ITs like, well its like someone you know trying to convinve you to dislike someone they dislike dnd then take actions against them . . .

They tend to give you only one side of the story. They tend to gloss over the details that weaken their arguments.

They imply that you are somehow being disloyal to your friend if you if you don't agree how evil the other person is ..

And then finally, they will use the argument that whatever they might do in the future is very bad so action has to be taken now.

Standard behaviors from lots of people.

Originally posted by alfuzzxi
I may be a little too trusting, but I don't think it's necesarily so bad if things are glossed over. Sadly there are a lot of ignorant uneducated people out there and they don't need to know all of the details of every little thing. Our government is filled with specialists on many different topics. Don't they know a lot more than a common citizen.

[Cloud9]

[QUOTE]Sadly there are a lot of ignorant uneducated people out there and they don't need to know all of the details of every little thing.[/QUOTE

Don't you see that as a problem? Knowledge is an extremely powerful thing. The best way to control the public is to keep it uneducated. I agree, there are way too many ignorant peple in this country, which makes it very easy to delude them. To me, that's not democracy. If we're really going to say that our country's purpose is to have true freedom for our citizens, then everyone should be well informed as to what decisions the government is making. Being blinded by politicians to their advantage is not true freedom to me. Unfortunately, battling this sort of compliant ingnorance is a task often left to activists and protesters rather than those in power

[alfuzzxi]

Originally posted by James
Well yes. I mean we are speaking in generalities here . . . so yes there are definitely specialists that know more about specific topics than the average citizen lol.

And there are ignorant uneducated people in the US that definitely respond to sound bites, emotional rhetoric, and don't remember information from last week let alone last year.

ITs not the details that are being glossed over per se . . .

ITs like, well its like someone you know trying to convinve you to dislike someone they dislike dnd then take actions against them . . .

They tend to give you only one side of the story. They tend to gloss over the details that weaken their arguments.

They imply that you are somehow being disloyal to your friend if you if you don't agree how evil the other person is ..

And then finally, they will use the argument that whatever they might do in the future is very bad so action has to be taken now.

Standard behaviors from lots of people.

That is exactly why there are several countries in the middle east where their citizens detest americans! I really don't think all of this action is as one sided as it may be portrayed. Why do you think Hussein wanted to have a debate with Bush? He wants to play the political game.

Are you trying to say in your quote that Bush does not have legitmate actions against Iraq?

[James]

I am saying that the point of the statement posted originally is that the things Bush is atributing/implying about Iraq are not always true nor are sufficient reasons in and of themselves for War at this time.

What they seem to be saying is that Bush wants to go to war with Iraq for whatever reason (as you said, maybe information not available to us), but that the reasoning he is using with the US populace and our allies is just a fabric of rationalization to justify something he already decided to do for reasons other than what we have been given.

That was a really long sentence.

Originally posted by alfuzzxi
That is exactly why there are several countries in the middle east where their citizens detest americans! I really don't think all of this action is as one sided as it may be portrayed. Why do you think Hussein wanted to have a debate with Bush? He wants to play the political game.

Are you trying to say in your quote that Bush does not have legitmate actions against Iraq?

[alfuzzxi]

Don't you see that as a problem? Knowledge is an extremely powerful thing. The best way to control the public is to keep it uneducated. I agree, there are way too many ignorant peple in this country, which makes it very easy to delude them. To me, that's not democracy. If we're really going to say that our country's purpose is to have true freedom for our citizens, then everyone should be well informed as to what decisions the government is making. Being blinded by politicians to their advantage is not true freedom to me. Unfortunately, battling this sort of compliant ingnorance is a task often left to activists and protesters rather than those in power [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, that we should keep our people well informed. The bad thing is the media gets into the frame of mind where they have to "inform" the people that they let out valuable information to other countires. With technology being more advanced it is already too easy for other countries to gain U.S. info.
Here is an example( not too clear on all details- something we were talking about in class)
Some top guy in the FBI released classified information to an author but refused to release the same info to Congress. These were classified briefs that under normal conditions would be kept classified for a number of years after the current presidency.( just how we now are finally gaining more info from the Kennedy and Nixon administrations) anyways- the info was the presedential briefings that the president receives every morning. The book is to be about how much info Busy knew about 9/11 before it happened. So this is info that our own Congress could not get, but now b/c of the media it is going to be published for the whole world to read.

[alfuzzxi]

Originally posted by James
I am saying that the point of the statement posted originally is that the things Bush is atributing/implying about Iraq are not always true nor are sufficient reasons in and of themselves for War at this time.

What they seem to be saying is that Bush wants to go to war with Iraq for whatever reason (as you said, maybe information not available to us), but that the reasoning he is using with the US populace and our allies is just a fabric of rationalization to justify something he already decided to do for reasons other than what we have been given.

That was a really long sentence.

haha, that made me laugh- about the whole long sentence thing!

anyways, so how do we know what Bush is saying his reasons are, aren't true. How do you know he has other reasons?

( I hope that made sense- It made sense in my head, sometimes the blonde in me comes out )

[KuThetaChi]

Ok everyone has said their opinion....so naturally I feel inclined to leave mine. Some won't agree, many won't like it, but thats the beautiful thing I live in a country where I can have one....but let me digress. I do support Bush. I feel that this war isn't simply about Oil but also about security. And for those who try to use the oil issue alot and say this is about money, I want you to post here and tell me one war where economics and the economy had no part. Ok so the UN doesnt back us on this issue, France will veto... France built them two nuclear reactors. One of the reactors was destroyed by whom we can only guess was the Israelies. And the other one was badly damaged. Did that stop the Butcher of Bahgdad? No he said fix it we still want it. Saddam has used Chemical/Biological weapons not only on our troops during desert storm but also on his OWN people. Yes the man who says that our president should back down....who says he wants Global disarment...who is also a dictator, terrorizes his own people. When was the last time Bush said I'm not getting support of my people for the war against Iraq specifically from Nebraska.... lets shoot some biological missles at the capitol and other large cities until they agree. Oh yeah that doesn't happen this is America. Another reason I choose to support Bush, is because he is making his target clear. He is not attacking the people he is attacking Saddam. Saddam has many times broke the rules of war by using civilians as shields. Don't tell me the US kills the people of Iraq because this is yet another Example of the leader that loves them also putting them in harms way. France and Germany are Iraqs suppliers of course they are gonna veto. Should their cowardliness stop us from protecting ourselves? Never!!! Is this a war about money no.... money alone was never enough of an issue for war, without a serious threat to security we would still be going through the UN. Hopefully this war will be quick and painless. I have a feeling there will be mass surrenders and an even more intense military program than before. Do I want or like war....NO. But do I realize that it is sometimes necessary....YES. I don't pray for "no war", I pray that it will be over soon and that Iraq will finally taste freedom. Bush has my support and confidence. Thanks and sorry to anyone offended....

[KuThetaChi]

To anyone moronic enough to say we should let Saddam be.... who says give me an example of what will happen... um yeah its called North Korea. Speaking of double standards I believe we the "American Liars" lived up to our end of that bargain while they in secret became a nuclear super power. So looking at our track record I would say action is called for....

If you think the rest of the world is so much better do one of three things,

1) change the system; run for office and change things
2) leave obviously if you aren't willing to do #1 and you're still bitching you shouldn't be here...
3) and possibly the best solution....... EDUCATE YOURSELF!!!!!

P.s. I'm a Democrat....moderate but whatever

edited for spelling

[sigmagrrl]

I can say that I'm learning a lot from this thread, but I still have my own opinion.

I definitely feel that people would feel differently about this war if it were going to be fought on our soil. I know I would be scared s*itless!! I'm anti-war as it is...I really feel bad for the people of Iraq. They are who I'm thinking of right now. The women and children, in particular, who are suffering in poverty now and probably more so afterwards if their land is ravaged by war. I feel bad for the men who will die for whatever the cause may be (I really don't know what to believe anymore.) Imagine bombs going off right outside your front door, dead bodies on your street, and death and destruction all around you.

I also feel that this is more of a personal vendetta for Bush: "Saddam tried to hurt my daddy! WAAH!" Or even "Hey, my dad couldn't finish the job, so maybe I will." I loathe this man. He had BETTER not be re-elected....

I do take a more emotional side than a logical side in most "arguments".

But, at least if something does happen here over the next few days, I'll be with my mom....

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by sigmagrrl
I can say that I'm learning a lot from this thread, but I still have my own opinion.

I definitely feel that people would feel differently about this war if it were going to be fought on our soil. I know I would be scared s*itless!! I'm anti-war as it is...I really feel bad for the people of Iraq. They are who I'm thinking of right now. The women and children, in particular, who are suffering in poverty now and probably more so afterwards if their land is ravaged by war. I feel bad for the men who will die for whatever the cause may be (I really don't know what to believe anymore.) Imagine bombs going off right outside your front door, dead bodies on your street, and death and destruction all around you.

Don't forget, we had a war right at home over 140 years ago... the Civil War. Over 600,000 Americans on both sides lost their lives. And the bloodiest battles of the Civil War occurred near Washington D.C. -- Bull Run I/II, Antietam, Gettysburg.

I also feel that this is more of a personal vendetta for Bush: "Saddam tried to hurt my daddy! WAAH!" Or even "Hey, my dad couldn't finish the job, so maybe I will." I loathe this man. He had BETTER not be re-elected....

I do take a more emotional side than a logical side in most "arguments".

But, at least if something does happen here over the next few days, I'll be with my mom....

I disagree on that point... The 'Shrub' finishing off what Papa Bush couldn't finish? That sonofab*tch Saddam has had 12 years to disarm, and yet he continues to give us the proverbial finger? We tried every diplomatic means at our disposal, now we have no other choice but to disarm Saddam by force. If all we did is to appease Saddam just like we did to Hitler back in the 1930s, chances are the next terrorist attack will be with weapons of mass destruction, and Iraqi fingerprints will be all over the device.

BTW I'm a moderate Republican, and I don't care for Rush Limbaugh's bombast. I do support our Commander in Chief, and there will be other factors, not just the impending Gulf War II that will determine whether I will vote to reelect him next year.