Sexism in Greekdom

[NUPE4LIFE]

For the Record: NUPE4LIFE has never supported the idea of fraternity or sorority sweethearts. The only sweethearts, per se, recognized by KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC. is our KAPPA SILOUHETTES.....wives of Kappa men. Now Mr. Ross, if you think even the idea of our Silouhettes could in the future become the basis of a woman suing for membership, I beg to differ. Kappa men value the relationship between the organization and it's Silouhettes as life partners and as aides to our great fraternity. Again, I do not support sweetheart organizations.

[NUPE4LIFE]

Mr. Ross, you seem to have a negative view of the way the D9 is conducting itself these days. You elude to the fact that we might now survive do to financial and other reasons. Subtract sarcasm: What do you suppose we do in order to ensure our survival?

[GroovePhi62]

But realistically women joining a D5 or BLO through Sweetheart Orgs. is a reality as long as there is a Homecoming court. I remeber every year at around Homecoming time hunderds of girls(mostly freshmen) doing almost anything just to be on somebody's court. They even went as far as making a "Ms. Cafeteria staff"(you know I went to HBCU) but of course our Ms. Black and White was the finest of them all!! I mean as long as time has been going on sweethearts have been apart of the collegiate fratenal system and to deny that fact is just plain ignorant. But what it has come down to is that women are not going to be treated like servants or groupies to Frats or Fellowships no longer and they will get what's theirs. brothers better start recognizing and realize that it's not the 60's anymore and women "pledging" to become a sweetheart is not and will not be tolerated.

[ChaosDST]

Wow...I had never heard of that. You learn something new everyday

I have to honestly say that this is one of the dumbest thing I've EVER heard. Okay, so a Que Pearl learns some things that PERHAPS she shouldn't learn just being a sweetheart (whomever taught her those things and/or made that info accessible needs to be put in the Full Nelson and). She's an Omega now? Uh....

What about all those men out there CLAIMING to be in sororities? If a man gets hold of some sacred info and whatever...can he sue DST and make us add him to the roster?

But, regardless of what the courts say...you're NOT a member of a FRATERNITY (that's not co-ed) if you're a chic.
If you THINK you are...you DESERVE to be disrespected (life's lessons are tough).

Shoot, if you IMAGINE you can jump off a bridge and fly...it doesn't mean you can...some things are JUST your imagination.

Originally posted by GroovePhi62
Not to mention the BGLO's name or anything but I remember in the late 80's two or three females becoming members of a fraternity because they basically got "pledged" as sweethearts. The young ladies took the fraternity to court and the fraternity had to admit them because apparently they had learned everything a member of the fraternity had to learn. They also took the same physical and mental "hazing" and this was one of the cases that led to most BGLO's banning sweethearts and ultimately "Uptop" pledging. I think they had their pictures in jet with their jackets on and everything.

[ChaosDST]

I won't even GET INTO how I feel about sweethearts. I WILL say that these women sign up to be a sweetheart...and know that it is for a FRATERNITY. A fraternity's (that's NOT co-ed) mission statement probably addresses the fact that it's a group of MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN founded for whatever purposes to encourage whatever values.

If these women go into this expecting to come out of it an actual member of that fraternity...these women aren't too bright.

If you're not too bright...we can't save you, nor should we be responsible for your lack of brain cells. Go lick your wounds...learn your life's lesson...have a Coke and a smile.

It's definitely about political correctness. Let's include people (even when it makes NO sense) because NOT including people will lead to undesirable consequences.

Definitely hold these fraternity men, who acknowledge sweethearts, responsible. I've been saying that even BEFORE I was a Delta. However, holding these fraternity men responsible also means holding these GROWN COLLEGE women responsible. These fraternity men should get sanctioned by their national entities AND these sweethearts should get relinquished from their "duties," a new brain for expecting more than what they paid for, and sent along their merry little way. Sounds like an even split and a done deal.

Originally posted by Divine Nine
Yeah, it says "fraternity" and "sorority" but you shouldn't have anyone serving you under the auspices of those definitions, yet not give them rights. My question is why do people want something for nothing? You have sweethearts who get absolutely NOTHING from the relationship except the "most exalted" status of being "close" to the brothers. Give me a break. You don't want a co-ed fraternity, then stop using women to do work you should do. But if you do want that "support" (of which I don't know what part of this "support" couldn't or shouldn't be done by the fraternity members in the first place), then you better get ready for one angry woman who says that she wants equal membership.

"Political correctness", which is an invalid conservative construct anyway, has nothing to do with it. What does matter is that people have to understand that they actions DO have consequences. And whether that equates to a legal matter is always up for grabs. White fraternities have a First Amendment right to dress in black face. They could have been doing it for hundreds of years. They're attitude can be "get over it" to any African American offended by it. But there is a price to pay and they now know it. Possible legal action (although it never sticks), ostracization from campus, and suspension from the national organization. Black fraternities and sororities have been beating folks for generations. We all know the consequences for those actions, legally et al. As for sexism in our ranks, that is an unspoken problems, and I think it extends far beyond the sweetheart issues.

You can put your heads in the sand, or pooh-pooh the notion, but as I said before, don't be surprised when one or a group of sweethearts demand membership because of the work they've done. And from the ranks of BGLO members, there will be a hue and cry about 'why can't we just do what we want to do'. Meanwhile, some fraternity will have to admit some female members because they didn't follow their own national rules. You get what you deserve in most cases.

Lawrence Ross

PS: And you never know when an organization would decide to try a test case in such a matter. It is not outside the realm of possiblity that some lawyers would actively look for a possible candidate to see if women could be admitted to a fraternity. You never know...

[COLOR=red]

[miss priss]

Originally posted by Divine Nine
Yeah, it says "fraternity" and "sorority" but you shouldn't have anyone serving you under the auspices of those definitions, yet not give them rights. My question is why do people want something for nothing? You have sweethearts who get absolutely NOTHING from the relationship except the "most exalted" status of being "close" to the brothers. Give me a break. You don't want a co-ed fraternity, then stop using women to do work you should do. But if you do want that "support" (of which I don't know what part of this "support" couldn't or shouldn't be done by the fraternity members in the first place), then you better get ready for one angry woman who says that she wants equal membership.

I applaude you for making this statement. For some weird reason, some women who become these "sweethearts" REALLLLY believe that they have all the rights and priviledges to be involved in XYZ activities/policies/etc. I am an Alpha Wife BUT I am in no way involved in the policy making of APHI.

As for sexism in our ranks, that is an unspoken problems, and I think it extends far beyond the sweetheart issues. You can put your heads in the sand, or pooh-pooh the notion, but as I said before, don't be surprised when one or a group of sweethearts demand membership because of the work they've done. And from the ranks of BGLO members, there will be a hue and cry about 'why can't we just do what we want to do'. Meanwhile, some fraternity will have to admit some female members because they didn't follow their own national rules. You get what you deserve in most cases.

Lawrence Ross

PS: And you never know when an organization would decide to try a test case in such a matter. It is not outside the realm of possiblity that some lawyers would actively look for a possible candidate to see if women could be admitted to a fraternity. You never know...

[B]
A good thought....

However, you have eluded that this issue is deeper than this. To me, are you saying the "bruhs" and "sisterfriends" need to work harder if they want to avoid this happening? That commitment to fraternity/sorority issues should be the main goal instead of focusing on a "pledge" process? Just asking......

[DoggyStyle82]

The Sweetheart Thing: is a red herring because less than 25% of chapters have them and of those that have them, maybe 10% take it too far. As far as male auxiliries, they were numerous when I was in college. There were MIAKAS for AKA and Delta Mids/Beaux for DST. Just about every Bruh im my chapter was a MID or MIAKA.

LAWSUIT: face it, you can be brought into court for anything these days, right, wrong, or indifferent. It costs a lawyer nothing to throw some ish against the wall a see if it sticks. Political Correctness is not a conservative construct, it is the reality of granting people victim status because things don't go their way. I know that that is the norm in California, but the rest of the country still believes that there needs to be some merit.

What is a FRATERNITY/SORORITY: is it a business, is it a community service organization, or is it a brother/sisterhood? That needs to be decided. You seem to believe it to be all 3 in that order. Personally, where you stand on this decides how you see how your org should act and go forward. Maybe because Delta is a Service Sorority and Alpha considers itself as "Servants to All", community service/business is the most appropriate course. Pledging as a means of membership may mean little. Omega, on the other hand is foremost, a Brotherhood (not at the exclusion of business/community service), as espoused by our motto and how one becomes a brother is very important. Distinctions between financial/active is not as important as whether or not you are a good "Bruh". If we are to be de facto or adjunct social service agencies, lets just eliminate the whole pretense of the Greek label. Why be greek? If the trappings of undergraduate greek life are so petty, pledging, stepping, hanging at the plot, greek week, etc are worthless, eliminate it all together. Why not meld everyone into APO or GSS. Let 100 Black Men take over the frats and NCNW take over the sororities? When we stop being so schizophrenic by trying to be all things to all people and be TRUE to OURSELVES, we can address the problems.

We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose.

[ladygreek]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
What is a FRATERNITY/SORORITY: is it a business, is it a community service organization, or is it a brother/sisterhood? That needs to be decided. You seem to believe it to be all 3 in that order. Personally, where you stand on this decides how you see how your org should act and go forward. Maybe because Delta is a Service Sorority and Alpha considers itself as "Servants to All", community service/business is the most appropriate course. Pledging as a means of membership may mean little. Omega, on the other hand is foremost, a Brotherhood (not at the exclusion of business/community service), as espoused by our motto and how one becomes a brother is very important. Distinctions between financial/active is not as important as whether or not you are a good "Bruh". If we are to be de facto or adjunct social service agencies, lets just eliminate the whole pretense of the Greek label. Why be greek? If the trappings of undergraduate greek life are so petty, pledging, stepping, hanging at the plot, greek week, etc are worthless, eliminate it all together. Why not meld everyone into APO or GSS. Let 100 Black Men take over the frats and NCNW take over the sororities? When we stop being so schizophrenic by trying to be all things to all people and be TRUE to OURSELVES, we can address the problems.

Since the word soror means sister, A Service Sorority can be roughly translated to a service sisterhood. What we are is a sisterhood, and what we do is community service, all within the legal infrastructure of a nonprofit corporation (business.) I don't see anything schizophrenic about that.

I am also curious as to how you define a good "bruh" if being a financial, active contributor to the brotherhood is not an important qualification?

[ChaosDST]

I agree about political correctness. It's not a made-up concept to prevent people from empowering themselves. What is and isn't a worthy cause is relative. EXAMPLE: if a drag queen wants to be homecoming queen and is told NO because he is a MAN (whether he feels like one or not)...allowing that person to be homecoming queen from fear of backlash is falling victim to political correctness.

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
LAWSUIT: face it, you can be brought into court for anything these days, right, wrong, or indifferent. It costs a lawyer nothing to throw some ish against the wall a see if it sticks. Political Correctness is not a conservative construct, it is the reality of granting people victim status because things don't go their way. I know that that is the norm in California, but the rest of the country still believes that there needs to be some merit.

I hear ya. What Omega is to you...and what a GOOD BRUH means to da Bruhs...is something that only YOU (and da Bruhs can know or debate over). I believe that we should stop trying to be all things to all people...that could be another thread though

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82 What is a FRATERNITY/SORORITY: Omega, on the other hand is foremost, a Brotherhood (not at the exclusion of business/community service), as espoused by our motto and how one becomes a brother is very important. Distinctions between financial/active is not as important as whether or not you are a good "Bruh". If we are to be de facto or adjunct social service agencies, lets just eliminate the whole pretense of the Greek label. Why be greek? If the trappings of undergraduate greek life are so petty, pledging, stepping, hanging at the plot, greek week, etc are worthless, eliminate it all together. Why not meld everyone into APO or GSS. Let 100 Black Men take over the frats and NCNW take over the sororities? When we stop being so schizophrenic by trying to be all things to all people and be TRUE to OURSELVES, we can address the problems.]

I agree emphatically.

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82 We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose.

[ChaosDST]

Lawrence, I completely understand your point. However, it's all about how you define "political correctness." My definition ONLY INCLUDES incidents such as the smell-handicapped dude and people who want to sue McDonald's b/c they're fat. I would tell smell dude to wear and mask and get over it. I would tell the McDonald's people to use some self-restraint and stop feeding their asses McDonald's.

This society is such that anything goes b/c NO ONE should be offended or left out of ANYTHING. Well, guess what, we have people with lawsuits against their schools b/c losing in a game of volleyball during gym period made them feel inferior. If there was a giant hand that could go across the country in one swoop and pimp slap these people...and bring them to their senses...that would be great.

Originally posted by Divine Nine
And you are wrong about political correctness. Political correctness was created as a convenient way to discredit all those who attempted to empower themselves, by pointing out the ridiculous. So the Cherokee who wanted to define himself as a Native American and a hippee from California who decides he is "smell-handicapped" and therefore want everyone to not wear perfume, are lumped together to invalidate both. Are the arguments the same? Of course not. But "political correctness" has become an Orwellian term that quite successful defined an argument, yet meant nothing in itself.

[miss priss]

Considering the recent rally to legislate frivolous lawsuits, do you think that
(Originally posted by DoggyStyle82)
We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose?
....which would mean lawsuits of this type is in fact frivolous?

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by ladygreek


Since the word soror means sister, A Service Sorority can be roughly translated to a service sisterhood. What we are is a sisterhood, and what we do is community service, all within the legal infrastructure of a nonprofit corporation (business.) I don't see anything schizophrenic about that.

I am also curious as to how you define a good "bruh" if being a financial, active contributor to the brotherhood is not an important qualification?

Thanks for your input, but the schizophrenia that I was referring to was not that. Delta Sigma Theta is a perfect model for what it does and what it attempts to do. But if you were to judge Delta or any other BLGO on its most pressing issues, most of it would center on the sisterhood/brotherhood aspect from which most problems emanate (relations between Grad/UG, Intake, Pledging/Hazing, Real vs. Paper, the resulting lawsuits, Ghosts/Renegade Members, members who are non-financial due to the lack of brother/sisterhood they see after U/G. That is the schizophrenia. Many of us in Grad are so busy about the business, that we forget the "bond". Meetings are simply gatherings for "business associates", and not people who share an un-decipherable bond that can't be understood by the uninitiated. Again, if the goal is to be "an unincorporated business that does community service" why not eliminate undergrads or at least all of the social aspects of Greekdom? Why have intake since the real bonding and work takes place afterward? That is the schizophrenia. Eliminate the pretense and you don't have to worry about who pledged harder, who is paper, who skated, about chapters that are t-shirt wearers, about stepping, strolling, claiming fictitious relationships and bonds. You don't have to worry about any of those things that "real, financial and active members" concern themselves with. Just be about the "real work" of XYZ. If the "real work" of XYX is "community service", eliminate the "bond" that is causing the confusion/schizophrenia, the stepshows, the plots, the parties, homecoming, the rivalries. Let's just be about the "real business" and we will save ourselves all of this wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Secondly, I never minimized being financial and active. That makes a good member, that makes a better member than an unfinancial "good Bruh". A "good Bruh" is someone you ask to stand at your side as you marry your Black Queen. A "good Bruh" is who you ask to to be your child's Godfather, a "good Bruh" will help you without asking questions like "how much? or "how long will it take?" A "good Bruh" will always set you out, provide a crust and a corner, a "good Bruh" will always be an asset to his family, community, and professional endeavors, a "good Bruh" will always represent Omega in its highest light. Now, none of these characteristics are necessitated by being financial or making chapter meeting on time. Considering that I am working on my Life Membership and that I am a Chapter Advisor and former Grad Chapter Basilues, I fight the reclamation fight all the time, I know the value of financial and active members to the success of our programs. But a "Brotherhood" that lasts a lifetime is not defined by financial status, but from the common bond that was forged over some burning hot sands. Now if you want to be my business partner or my fellow laborer in altruistic endeavors, I'll take a good member.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Divine Nine



Only 25% of the chapters have sweethearts? And where do you get these stats from? And let's assume they are correct and only 10% of the chapters with sweetheart go too far, wouldn't that be a significant amount to illustrate that we have a problem? But I'll tell you, I've been to over one hundred schools, and nearly all have at least ONE fraternity with sweethearts.

And you are wrong about political correctness. Political correctness was created as a convenient way to discredit all those who attempted to empower themselves, by pointing out the ridiculous. So the Cherokee who wanted to define himself as a Native American and a hippee from California who decides he is "smell-handicapped" and therefore want everyone to not wear perfume, are lumped together to invalidate both. Are the arguments the same? Of course not. But "political correctness" has become an Orwellian term that quite successful defined an argument, yet meant nothing in itself.

As for what is a fraternity or sorority? Well yes, it has always been a combination of brotherhood/sisterhood, business, and community service organization. And by the statistics, every organization and not just Omega, values the intrinsic values of brotherhood/sisterhood over everything. Why? Well because only one out of ten fraternity men and four out of ten sorority members are financial. So obviously, the financial aspects are not important. We almost made "how one is brought into" the organization a fetish, where there is a constant circular trap of proving oneself on line, and then getting others to prove themselves to you. Intake becomes the end and not the means.

And one other thing. The whole idea that being financial is less important than being a "good bruh" is folly. And if that was the case, then not one of our Divine Nine organizations would exist today. For example, during the Great Depression, a lot of banks failed, and most D9 organizations lost great amounts of their general funds. Omega lost about a third of its funds in 1931, and had to appeal to members for a voluntary $5 payment, whether they had paid previously or not. Now I would argue that if Omega members had decided that it was more important to be a "good bruh" to each other rather than support their fraternity financially, Omega possibly would have not made it to 2002.

And as for the community service aspect, I think the correct question is if we are NOT doing enough community service, then why are we in our organizations in the first place. I can create a brotherhood in my dorm. I can create a brotherhood in my neighborhood. I can create a brotherhood in a gang. I can create a brotherhood in my church. And all can be legit. But why do we as college men gather? Not just for mutual support, but for a greater good. That's why we include those high falootin' words in our mottos.

Lastly, whether or not single sex organizations are sexist is dependent upon on how they treat the opposite sex. Do they treat the opposite sex as equals or inferiors to be exploited? What is their philosophy? That's the definition of sexism. And as it pertains to sweethearts, do you really think they are equals to the fraternity members they serve? I think not.

Bro. Lawrence:

Its obvious that the Sweetheart issue is some major campaign of yours. I'll defer to you on the quantity of Sweethearts. The Omega circles that I travel in, I see very few of them compared to my undergad days. In my chapter alone, we had about 60 of them and the Kappas had at least 200 Sweethearts. The bottom line is that adult women cannot be exploited in a volunteer organization without their willing participation. Being a Sweetheart is not a mandatory college experience. The 10% that I referred to is that Brothers were teaching or doing inappropriate things to/with their Sweethearts, not neccessarily something that was worth litigation.

Political Correctness:
Like ChaosDST states, Political Correctness is not about the sensible. Its about coercing others to adhere to a point of view just to make people feel better about themselves, many times to the detriment of others. No one can play dodge ball now because the fat kid gets hit first. The school choir can't sing "Come All Ye Faithful" at the school "Holiday" Program, heck you can't even use the name of the holiday in the program. Dartmouth making Greek organizations coed or they will be banned is Communism. It is forcing people to think and act the way that you want them to because "you" believe that you are right and by default that everyone else is wrong or at minimum, some unevolved fascist. Education is about teaching people alternative viewpoints and theories, not forcing them on you. To use the threat of lawsuit and financial insolvency does not make one's position right.

Isn't it funny that how one was "made" was never such a divisive issue until it was changed wholesale. Can you quote for me the same statistics of ratio for financial/non-financial for each decade. My hunch is that there isn't a tremendous variation or that that variation has been exacerbated by the divisiveness of intake.

As I stated to the esteemed LadyGreek, I never diminished the importance of being financial. In terms of "Brotherhood", being a "good Bruh" is not impacted by one's financial status. If you take my statement in the context in which it was rendered, it was about how Omega values "Brotherhood" , not to the exclusion of financial obligations, but in "brother to brother" relations. Your illustration from the events of 1931 illustrate my point. It was extremely hard for Brothers to be financial during the depression, especially those whose savings were depleted, but when called upon, the "good Bruhs" show up. As an aside, most of our organizations would be in exceptional financial shape if it weren't for lawsuits eating up ourr operating capital. Even if you relaimed 50% of your membership, that is more money for a lawyer to go after. They know just how much of your assets to seek.

Community Service:
We are doing a great deal of community service. For those in Grad chapters that are juggling jobs, families, school, church, and a social life, we are doing a whole lot for a brother/sisterhood. Yes we can always do more. We can do more if we kept more of our money from lawyers also. But the question remains, are we as Black Greeks responsible for every aspect of social service? Are our organizations specifically designed for those tasks or are we brother/sisterhoods that practice altruism. My point that I will beat to death is that if I wanted to belong to an organization dedicated solely to social service, I. will do it through 100 Black Men. What I get with Omega is much more and very different. I don't want to ruin my fraternal experience by so focused on business that I forget my "brotherhood". You can't be all things to all people, nor serve two masters.

[ChaosDST]

I would say they are frivolous. There's a difference between a young lady fighting for admittance into VMI and a young lady fighting for admittance into Omega Psi Phi.

This society has become increasingly ridiculous in its attempts to legitimate faulty and even blasphomous claims.

A big culprit in a lot of this is the ACLU (damn them to hell for taking the fight for civil liberties "too far"...and pardon my French). If anyone regularly watches the Bill O'Reilly Factor on FOX News network...you will know what I'm talking about.


<---still waiting for that giant hand to swoop across AmeriKKKa

Originally posted by miss priss
Considering the recent rally to legislate frivolous lawsuits, do you think that
(Originally posted by DoggyStyle82)
We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose?
....which would mean lawsuits of this type is in fact frivolous?

[ladygreek]

I have to say that to me this is one of the best discussions I have seen on any message board. Two dynamic brothers making their different points intelligently and with great articulation. I'm loving it!

Doggy, thanks for your response to my post. And then to refer to me as esteemed, Lawd I am fanning myself. Lawrence, see this is why you are a good author. Love you both!