Plight @ Institutions of Higher Learning

[PearlEssence08]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6


Well, if those who hand out accredidations have found through their own research, studies, etc. that Morris Brown needs to lose their accredidation, I will have to say that is substandard. I don't think that Morris Brown was singled out, they just weren't making the grade. And any school for that matter who isn't up to par Is and should be treated the same. HBCU's are no exception.

And as far as Non-AA's attending HBCU's, most that I talk to and ask why ONLY give the financial aspect as their reasoning. It's either cheap...or they're getting a scholarship. But again, I am speaking from my own personal experience.

And I'm sorry if HBCU alums are offended by this, but facts are facts. Howard as an institution cannot compete with the resources that Duke or Stanford has. I'm not just trying to down HBCU's, I'm just looking at the issue. I've been on both sides of the coin, so I'm speaking from my own personal experience, as well as those that I know.

And as for affirmative action, I think anytime you make someone work hard (even if it's harder than the next person) for something, it builds character. But when you give them something just based on the color of their skin, that doesn't build character. It starts a trend of people beginning to expect things because of their skin color, not their ability. I agree that there are differences in the education that some students receive, but the way to combat that problem is not to "give" them something because of that. OUr community needs to adopt a stricter work ethic and not feed into the idea that society owes us something. My founders didn't have affirmative action, and they excelled because they chose to. They couldn't afford to wait until someone gave them something. They had to get up, get out and get it themselves!



AN Aside...White women are the major beneficiaries of affirmative action, not blacks!!!

Interesting point Lovespell; however, one thing you raised made me question. You said that when people are given things based on color, they start to expect things to be given to them. That's true and it's certainly been that way for white people for a very looooooooooooooooong time which, in my opinion, is EXACTLY why they don't want affirmative action in place anymore. White people will always be given things and have special privileges simply BECAUSE of their skin color. If equality is the issue when it comes to affirmative action, then shouldn't black people, ALL people, be given things based on color. I certainly don't agree with that. But if we use the argument that things are given based on skin color, then affirmative action is the solution.

[DELTABRAT]

I have to agree with PearlEssence. There was a story in the paper of two white women who were suing Univ. of Michigan because they didn't get into law school. Now, they had good grades and scores and what not but are suing because they feel they weren't let in because African Am. and Latina/os were instead. Here is my issue...
I think affirmative action can also be a foot in the door BUT white people use it to make a case out of any case. An Af.Am person with the same scores, same grades and eveything doesn't get in and we "learn" to just say "Maybe it wasn't meant to be?" No, we KNOW it's because of our skin color. However, do we press charges and sue, no, we move on to the next campus/job. White folks on the other hand not only have the resources to sue but feel they have a right to sue...that they DESERVE to be at xyz University. It's f____ up y'all. And it will get worse. Now, I don't agree with the "save 15 slots for Blacks and Latinos" jive but I know at UCLA (remember prop 209...yeah, though so) they admitted a little over 100 Black folks last year OUT OF 30,000 STUDENTS!!!

That's ridiculous. And the white folks are mediocre to say the least. I just feel that it gives admissions committees the "right" to just say "f___ 'em. We don't HAVE to take them so screw 'em." It's not right.

Oh yeah, King Drew University JUST lost it's accredication for one of the departments in its medical school like yesterday, as well. Drew is the ONLY Black medical school in California and affiliated with MLK Hospital in Compton/Los Angeles/Watts whatever.

I don't think MB will close. The accreditation issue means they have to get some things in order. One of which may me grades others of which may be purely bureaucratic.

It's goin' down! Y'all ready for a revolution?

[straightBOS]

Originally posted by DELTABRAT
An Af.Am person with the same scores, same grades and eveything doesn't get in and we "learn" to just say "Maybe it wasn't meant to be?" No, we KNOW it's because of our skin color. However, do we press charges and sue, no, we move on to the next campus/job
......
I don't think MB will close. The accreditation issue means they have to get some things in order. One of which may me grades others of which may be purely bureaucratic.

It's goin' down! Y'all ready for a revolution?

Your first point is quite inaccurate as much of what we have as a result of Affirmative Action is a direct result of legal action. And, we continue to bring racial discrimination suits all of the time.

As to the second point. Test scores are not the only problem. The last administration mishandled money so poorly that the school is millions of dollars in debt. And, since losing its accreditation, it has lost federal funds and is under investigation for mismanagement of these funds.

****
****
The only thing that can save them would be something along the lines of "Bill Gates" money. Something, I personally, don't see coming in the near future. The MBC admin. saw this coming and should have made preparations to shut down the school in time for their students to transfer to other schools.

It is the alumni who are so proud of their HBCUs that should be as eager to support them and ensure that they never have to close their doors. We should not shoot the messengers as the headlines, so far, have told no lies.

As for Afirmative Action-- the sooner we get that monkey off our backs the better off we will be. As Love Spell 6 said, we are not even the greatest beneficiaries. And, most of us have not benefited from it at all, so what exactly are we holding on to? Affirmative Action is an illusion. And, with the information and resources that we have available at our disposal today, it is absurd to argue that we need to be given the benefit of the doubt when we do not perform at a certain level. Instead of talking about how hard it is to be Black in America, we should actually live it and worker harder for what we want.

Too bad for MBC, but for some reason, I can't seem to feel sad.

[abaici]

I'm sorry, despite your intentions, your statements were offensive. I received my undergraduate education at Spelman and my graduate education at UCLA. I can look at this situation from both sides of the fence as well. I firmly believed that the education I received at Spelman as an undergraduate was better than the one I would have received at UCLA. I say this because of my many encounters with people who attended Cal, UCLA, or other top ten schools. The fact that you stated that students receive a substandard education at HBCU's is not true. I cannot count the number of HBCU educated people who have won national awards, received acceptance into top ten graduate programs, and who are movers and shakers in their respective fields. I mean, if Spelman had a graduate program, I would have continued my education there. Please know that HBCU graduates are well-prepared and competitive. Top companies do not come to recruit there because we are Black, but because they realize that we are the best and the brightest.


Ok, I'm sorry. I just had to vent. I still see the need for affirmative action. I am in education, and every day I see the differences in schools that have a majority of Black/Latino students and ones that are predominately white. We do not have the same access to technology, books, or highly trained teachers. It is unfair and cruel to measure students who do not even have a desk or a textbook with students in Beverly Hills who have access to the latest resources. I am speaking as someone who has not benefited from affirmative action. Even though I have never benefited from it, I still see the need. Affirmative action is not rewarding people who CAN'T do the job/work, but allowing those people who would be denied because of their sex or skin color, a chance.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by abaici
I'm sorry, despite your intentions, your statements were offensive. I received my undergraduate education at Spelman and my graduate education at UCLA. I can look at this situation from both sides of the fence as well. I firmly believed that the education I received at Spelman as an undergraduate was better than the one I would have received at UCLA. I say this because of my many encounters with people who attended Cal, UCLA, or other top ten schools. The fact that you stated that students receive a substandard education at HBCU's is not true. I cannot count the number of HBCU educated people who have won national awards, received acceptance into top ten graduate programs, and who are movers and shakers in their respective fields. I mean, if Spelman had a graduate program, I would have continued my education there. Please know that HBCU graduates are well-prepared and competitive. Top companies do not come to recruit there because we are Black, but because they realize that we are the best and the brightest.

I'm guessing your comments were directed at my post, but even if they weren't, I'll respond anyway.

I'm glad that you enjoyed your education at Spelman. That's great. But as I said, I was speaking from MY experience and those that I know. Many people leave HBCU's dis-satisfied with the way they were treated, and refuse to donate $$ back to the school. If your experience was different, that's cool, I was just speaking from another perspective.

Also, please re-read my post. I did make a blanket statement that said all students at HBCU's receive a sub-standard education. I asserted that if the accredidation is lost, one can reasonably deduce that in some way, shape, or form...the school was sub-standard.

And lastly, do you really believe that top companies go to HBCU's mostly because they feel they are the best and the brightest? Better than Harvard or Yale grads? Maybe that's what they say....but in the board room...many times it comes down to that bottom line....diversity, quotas....etc. And before anyone takes that statement and runs with it....I am not saying that all HBCU grads are inferior or stupid. I'm just speaking about what goes on.

I know that's not what anyone wants to hear, but that's just facts.

I respect your viewpoint, I just differ on some points.

[abaici]

I respect your opinion as well, but I disagree. I will admit that my best and brightest comment was just HBCU pride speaking. However, I do believe that recruiters know that we are Black and we have the skills to back it up. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your previous post, but when you mentioned that Howard was inferior to Duke, I felt that was a blanket statement. I will acknowledge that all HBCU's are not elite institutions, but you should acknowledge that some of them are. I still think that I can hang with a Princeton/Yale graduate. For all of my faults, the one thing that I do not suffer from is low self esteem. I realize that I am not a genius, but I will not bow down to someone because they have a degree from Harvard or Yale. I mean, George W. went to Yale, and I KNOW I'm smarter than him. I just have a different outlook. I still believe that if HBCU students were not prepared, they would not be able to retain the jobs that they were supposely receiving due to affirmative action.

[GroovePhi62]

I'm coming at the perspective of another on this particular subject "The Black Male Athlete". Our role in the collegiate system is the MAJOR reason why alot of these debates are happening today. Up until the 1970's it wasn't a question where the top BM athletes were going to college, Morehouse, MB, JCSU, TSU, NCA&T, GSU, just to name a few. Now it's either the pro's or Notre Dame, MINN, UofI, Duke, UNC, etc. the HWI (historically white institutions) have taken our best and brightest from the classrooms also. As we have become richer and more "valuable" in our adult lives many have forgotten the Hood and taken on the suburban mentality. Alot of us forgot where we came from and have taken on a new meaning of what it means to be Black in America. I myself went also to both Institutions and can say it was like night and day. I was a star track athlete in H.S. and was heavily recruioted by many of the HWI in the country and in the area. But that's not where i wanted to be so I went to and HBCU instead and tried to be a walk on, I was told #1 we don't do Track scholarships and #2 we really don't have uniforms so you have to buy your own. I was like WTF is this! In the same breath the coach with his greasy self said that I would have play football also if I wanted a scholarship for track. Now I know a little bit about NCAA rules and you MUST ALLLOCATE THE SAME AMOUNT OF SCHOLARSHIPS per sport. well at this HBCU and many others they don't. I ended up transferring to an HWI where I was treated like a king for track we ended up winning the NCAA natonal championships and the rest is history. The main problems I see with HBCU' s is that they #1 don't treat the college students as adults and #2 the flaunt this gaudiness in the students face like they are the Sh^T or something. I mean at the HWI I attended I was able to go to the presidents office and eat lunch with him, shoot the breeze and whatever and not because I was an athlete but because he knew I helped pay his paycheck. At the HBCU that was physically impossible, I would get the runnaround and don't even talk about the financial aid office, losing checks, no staff, people putting their friends on the payroll, just straight unprofessional. Now don't get me wrong the HWI had issues also but nothing this severe.

Now lastly to address about whom corporations are going to for recruiting, it's like this, they look at four main things: accredidation, relationship with the company, credit hours taken and past performance of previous alumnus at the company. Now at the company I work for they have basically stopped going to certain HBCU's because of past employee issues (fighting on the job, cursing out the mgr., not showing up to work, etc.). Now I know that those are primarilly independent issues but if you had your own company and this happened would you think twice?

And some advice to anyone at an HBCU now: Find, if you can, the curriculum for your degree that you are majoring in at a major HWI. If they are taking advanced Mth classes and not just the minimum-do that! If the business students must subscribe to WSJ, and one othe financial magazine- DO That!( I just so happen to know those are two things they do at a prestigious HWI on the east coast where the average graduate earns 75k starting). and don't just take the min. credit hours I know you wanna graduate on tim but ain't no shame in graduating in five years.

Good luck my black people and to those at MBC my prayers are with you!

[12dn94dst]

The issue with MB is not that the education is "substandard." The issue is misuse of federal financial aid funds. Accreditation determines whether a school gets federal aid funds. The logic behind MB losing accreditation is that if you take away the funds, they won't be misused.

[Honeykiss1974]

THis afternoon at 3pm (EST) on NPR (National Public Radio) they will be discussing this issue, why some HBCU's thrive and other's don't, and whether or not HBCU's are still relevant in today's world.

----
OH Goodness, where do I start. Some points have been made about SOME HBCU behavior that is well, less that stella. I can certainly relate to the whole financial aid office ATTITUDES, and such. Sometimes I can see why most of us do nto support our alma maters. At my HBCU, not only did we have "summer camp" rules(our dorm had curfew hours, males had to leave by 10pm, etc.), but our admin did not care how they treated us. We were babied. I think the majority of our college staff felt like they could treat us like this because they knew that they would not see any of us after we graduate. Shoot, our campus police sometimes acted like they worked in OZ and not a a college! Now after going through mess like that for four years, I am not surprise to hear my fellow alums say "Funk our HBCU"!

For some reason HWI know that if for the majority of their students tenture, if they treat them decent and like adults while there, they will support them. HWI's alumni will look back at the good times that they had (going greek, having dorms with no rules, food courts, etc.) and will feel good. Most of us look back, and get P.O.!


Not to hijack the thread into a controversial topic, but I think melanin-challenged people do not have a problem "hooking each other up" when it benefits THEIR best interest. For some reason, we haven't grasp that concept yet.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst
The issue with MB is not that the education is "substandard." The issue is misuse of federal financial aid funds. Accreditation determines whether a school gets federal aid funds. The logic behind MB losing accreditation is that if you take away the funds, they won't be misused.

]

This statment is inaccurate. Accreditation is about MUCH more than determining whether a school gets federal funds:


The following link describes in detail what accreditation does for a university. And further, MOST graduate schools will not recognize degrees from universities that are not accredited.

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OPE/accred.../accredus.html

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
]

This statment is inaccurate. Accreditation is about MUCH more than determining whether a school gets federal funds:


The following link describes in detail what accreditation does for a university. And further, MOST graduate schools will not recognize degrees from universities that are not accredited.

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OPE/accred.../accredus.html

Your deduction is inaccurate as well. But fine, for symantics sake, PART of the accreditation process is determining whether a school received federal funding. From the link YOU provided: "Providing one of several considerations used as a basis for determining eligibility for Federal assistance."

That still does not change the LOGIC behind why MB lost accreditation. The point is MB was not using federal financial aid funds for what they were supposed to be used. Anyone who has been following this story would know that. But hey, if you want to believe that MB lost accreditation because it provides substandard education ...

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst


Your deduction is inaccurate as well. But fine, for symantics sake, PART of the accreditation process is determining whether a school received federal funding. From the link YOU provided: "Providing one of several considerations used as a basis for determining eligibility for Federal assistance."

That still does not change the LOGIC behind why MB lost accreditation. The point is MB was not using federal financial aid funds for what they were supposed to be used. Anyone who has been following this story would know that.

Whoa Soror! Seems you are getting offensive. I was simply pointing out that there was more to accreditation. No need to get hostile!

I hope the link provides helpful information for those that don't know as much as you do about this.

[gamma_girl52]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst

That still does not change the LOGIC behind why MB lost accreditation. The point is MB was not using federal financial aid funds for what they were supposed to be used. Anyone who has been following this story would know that. But hey, if you want to believe that MB lost accreditation because it provides substandard education ...

That is the reason why Morris Brown is not accredited anymore-the administration was misusing federal funds. It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of education at that institution.

I was hearing today that this semester could be MB's last one. I work at Georgia State, where I'm also a student. Our Associate Provost has already been approached by graduating MB Seniors who are trying to transfer to GSU so they can graduate on time. However, they may not be able to because the deadline has passed for that already.

I feel for those students who have worked hard to obtain a degree and they have to suffer. As a graduating Senior (in May) I can sympathize with them....I hope that everything works out for them. All of this is certainly not their fault, but they are feeling the fallout.

[Exquisite5]

I didn't read any of the links, I just wanted to add this information to the discussion.

Are you guys certain MB will close or is that a guess? Losing one's accreditation does not require a school close, it just means it needs to get its act together.

In the late eighties/early nineties MIT lost its ABET (engineering) accreditation. You can see it has rebounded quite nicely.

[12dn94dst]

Whether MB will close or not is up to the administrators. The accreditation that MB lost is for the school, not just one department/degree program, so the entire student body is affected. This does have an impact, especially on graduating seniors & I would hope that the other colleges & universities in the AUC and in Atlanta will take that into consideration when dealing with those MB students who choose to transfer.