fake Greeks

[FuzzieAlum]

I think you're not going to get anywhere getting professional Greeks to join any kind of local council. The PFC is strictly a national organization, and I am not aware of any campus where they have a local version of it. The groups within the PFC vary so much that it would be difficult to come up with a set of rules they all agree on. Please note I am not trying to say it is an inherently bad idea, just that I think it is unlikely to happen.

For example, some groups have graduates and undergraduates. Others are limited to grad students. Presumably, the dental fraternity DSD on my campus was all students over 21. There's no way to get them to limit alcohol in the house, particularly when they own it. Others professional fraternities don't own houses or live together. A Phi O is a service fraternity, and I am not aware of A Phi O being the sponsor of many parties (at least on my campus). What is amounts to is that the "professional" umbrella is a big one.

And it's not like everyone needs to be in a council. Do we need the Student Political Groups Council, the Religious Groups Council, the Sports Club Council? Unless the organizations themselves feel there is a benefit to them, it just amounts to more red tape. It will take a lot to convince people that a new council is necessary.

There are two groups who should be monitoring this chapter, though: their national and the local student activities office. Ideally, recognition by the student activities office should be a prerequisite for existence, and recognition should be contingent on following certain rules - such as no hazing. Let me add a third group, too: The band SHOULD certainly be concerned about this, even if they aren't, especially if they sponsor these groups.

It sounds like someone - I guess the school - has decided that in this group's case to give up any authority over them and trust them to be self-policing. That is not a smart call on the school's part. In the end, the university has in loco parentis responsibility for all its undergraduates, and a responsibility to keep an eye on all student groups, whether they're Young Libertarians or KKPsi.

[Shine]

If there is a group on campus, that comes together to socialize, do service, or under a common professional goal, that calls themselves a fraternity or sorority and wears greek letters, THEY ARE A REAL GLO...point blank, end of story.

It's your attitude that makes it hard to accept greek unity in this world.

Aside from the fact that you're a local, and you should be MUCH more tolerant of non-IFC/PFC orgs exisitng. I guarantee you that many people look at your fraternity and it's participation in IFC stuff as you are all a bunch of wannabe rejects from IFC rush, and not real greeks. I'm not speculating, I'm sharing a cold hard fact that I know from being in a national service org, and having dated a few men in a local org.

That being said, hazing is WRONG, and so is illegal drinking. However, 4 major IFC fraternities just got booted off my campus for hazing and/or other violations. Does that mean THEY are not real greeks?

Go for greek unity man. Don't point the finger. Be proactive and do something about it.

[AOIIHope]

I am in Tau Beta Sigma, and if anyone says that we shouldn't be allowed to wear letters then they need to look at all the work we do. We're a wonderful service organization. Some people look at us and say because we don't have a house or that we aren't social so we dont' count.
Since when does having a house mean you're Greek or not? Don't point fingers like that please, KKPsi our are brothers and while hazing should not be going on neither should this finger pointing.
And yes the KKPsi and TBS chapters are monitered and watched over. If they are getting away with stuff someone needs to speak to their advisor.

[erica812]

I was determined not to get involved in this particular thread. In an attempt to keep some sense of anonymity, I have refrained from commenting upon OnePlus69Is70's poor experience at UMass in past threads. But now I must speak up!

I realize that everyone's college experience is different. Obviously, people transfer in and out of every college and university all over the world at various points in their college careers. Just like individual fraternities and sororities, what is a perfect fit for one person may rub another the wrong way (sorry for the cliches). OnePlus said that UMass is "a terrible school on all counts." Come on! Just take a look at the list of professors in the English department. When I was accepted into the MFA/poetry program here at UMass, I cried with joy!! I was thrilled that out of hundreds of applicants, I was one of approximately 20 poets chosen to study with UMass's Pulitzer Prize winner. My husband passed up NYU to study with some the absolutely stellar faculty here.

I realize that the reputation of Greeks is suffering due to the misbehavior of some groups. I understand that the UMass Greek system isn't particularly well run. That is part of the reason that I am working to establish a community-based chapter of Beta Sigma Phi. I'm looking for the bonds of sisterhood, not the politics behind a weak Greek system. BUT... I know that UMass, like all institutions, has positive AND negative aspects. I hope that every person who is reading this thread realizes that OnePlus has had an unfortunately high number of bad experiences, and his perspective should not be construed as the whole picture.

OnePlus69Is70....please do not take this message as an attack against you or your views. I'm sure that many students (and staff) at UMass have similar opinions of UMass-Amherst, and I also have quite a few complaints myself. However, I felt that I must defend a place that has provided me with the one of the best post-graduate educations in poetry that this country can offer. I sincerely hope that you can make some happy memories before you graduate so that you can look back at these last few years of your life and NOT wonder why you wasted them. Until that happens, I think it IS important for you to make your opinions known. Without people like you to pinpoint the weaknesses and to offer suggestions for change, the Greek system and the school as a whole will never improve. Good luck in your efforts!

Erica

(edited because I'm a nut for correct punctuation. Hey...I teach freshman comp!)

[texas*princess]

FuzzieAlum is right, PFA does *not* exist as a council on a local level like NPC and IFC councils do, but only on an inter/national level.

Each member of PFA from what I understand has it's own GPA requirements. and things of that nature. Also, from what I understand, members of the Professional Fraternity Association are supposed to have faculty advisors (I think having a faculty advisor might also be a requirement to be recognized on some campuses). These faculty advisors are the first people to go to when things like this happen (all the hazing you speak of).

Oneplus, you mentioned you don't have a problem with "non-Greeks" wearing their letters as long as they "behave".. what about NPC/IFC Greeks who don't "behave" ?

I think all the IFC, NPC, NPHC and all other Greek organizations are great. Granted there are some differences, I think they all instill leadership, promote brotherhood/sisterhood, community service and academics, so why is that anyone who is not on your IFC/NPC council just "non Greek"? Just like someone mentioned in this thread earlier, if that is their "home" there should be a place for everyone.

[AngelPhiSig]

Originally posted by OnePlus69Is70


Edited to say:
If you're going to look into hazing with KKPsi, look at the band in general if you can. It's a problem the school likes to pretend isn't there. I know there are social Greeks here that still haze, but that's no excuse for any other group- we've got to rip it out everywhere.

I cant do anything about the band, but I can do something about KKY hazing...

[DGWannabe]

My school doesn't really have many professional GLO's, but our BGLO's break all the "rules" I know every org. has different protocals etc. But the groups at my school haze, haze haze like hell, do not do anything with the rest of the greek system, do not attempt to be a part of it, do not have a faculty advisor, do not have to report to anyone on campus, nor do they have an NPHC. It's like they just do what they want and the school recognizes them in the sense that they list them as an organization in the student handbook etc. When I asked why they don't have to live by the same (or at least similar) rules as us, I was told because their nationals don't make them. And the school can't not *rocognize* them because that would be racist. I thought that was bit weird. So I can see why you'd be miffed at these groups, but they are real. They have things they believe in and were founded by people who had certain goals. People tend to rise/lower to the expectation set for them. If you expect people to be *fake* then I guess they will become that.

[Kevin]

TBS KKY, whatever.. if they say they're Greek they are.

This poses a small problem for us IFC, PHC, NPHC types... Our reputation hinges on the actions of other groups. It's not fair at all but to 90% of the general public all Greek letters look the same. Sigma Nu might as well be KKY to most folks out there.

So is it fair when one organization makes the news for some boneheaded crap that they pull? Hell no. We *all* should be watching eachother and keeping eachother in line.

With your situation here at UMASS.. I'll bet your state has some very specific laws against hazing. If you have any hard evidence call them up and tell them to tone it down or you're going to involve law enforcement. If they don't settle down call the District Attorney, local police, etc...

The fact is that this stuff can NOT be allowed to happen. Your chapters existance is at jeapordy. If you don't believe it just look at what happened in places like Alfred University.

[SoTrue1920]

DGWannabe, I'm interested in knowing which school you attend. It's my understanding (as a member of a NPHC organization) that no NPHC groups can be organized on campuses without SOME sort of governing body, be it campus-based or community based (in the form of Graduate/Alumni chapter supervision or a city-wide NPHC governing board).

As far as not doing anything with the rest of the greek system - there has been a long history of non-cooperation between NPC/NIC and the NPHC, most of it based on the fact that the NPC/NIC groups didn't permit interaction between Black and White greeks. Yes, it's sad to say that it still goes on in this day and age, but to say that because NPHC organizations choose to keep their traditions separate they're "breaking the rules" is incorrect and a product of misinformation.

The rules are different because the NIC, NPC, and NPHC are separate and distinct governing bodies: none has authority or jurisdiction over the other.

Furthermore, I sincerely hope you're not insinuating that because NPHC organizations aren't governed by the NIC/NPC that they're "fake". There's about a million members of the collective NPHC organizations who would have a serious bone to pick with you about that.

Originally posted by DGWannabe
My school doesn't really have many professional GLO's, but our BGLO's break all the "rules" I know every org. has different protocals etc. But the groups at my school haze, haze haze like hell, do not do anything with the rest of the greek system, do not attempt to be a part of it, do not have a faculty advisor, do not have to report to anyone on campus, nor do they have an NPHC

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by ktsnake
This poses a small problem for us IFC, PHC, NPHC types... Our reputation hinges on the actions of other groups. It's not fair at all but to 90% of the general public all Greek letters look the same. Sigma Nu might as well be KKY to most folks out there.

So is it fair when one organization makes the news for some boneheaded crap that they pull? Hell no. We *all* should be watching eachother and keeping eachother in line.

I would think that all the different GLO's have a risk management policy and a strict no-hazing policy. If what this chapter is doing is true, then yes it should be reported to someone. Just because they are not recognized by the school doesn't exempt them from not being allowed to haze. In some states (I know Texas has this) there are state laws prohibiting hazing.

I agree with what ktsnake says about all watching out for each other. It's all the same.. it doesn't matter if KKY is hazing, or there is something in the paper about another service fraternity, or professional fraternity or even a social fraternity/sorority hazing... it affects the repuations of *all* types of Greeks because just like ktsnake said, not all people know the difference.

This is where Greek unity comes in... if we all watch out for each other, regardless of what GLO we are in, we can help stop this. Hazing should not happen, and it's not fair for *any* Greeks to get a bad repuation because of what one chapter does.

[starang21]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920
DGWannabe, I'm interested in knowing which school you attend. It's my understanding (as a member of a NPHC organization) that no NPHC groups can be organized on campuses without SOME sort of governing body, be it campus-based or community based (in the form of Graduate/Alumni chapter supervision or a city-wide NPHC governing board).

As far as not doing anything with the rest of the greek system - there has been a long history of non-cooperation between NPC/NIC and the NPHC, most of it based on the fact that the NPC/NIC groups didn't permit interaction between Black and White greeks. Yes, it's sad to say that it still goes on in this day and age, but to say that because NPHC organizations choose to keep their traditions separate they're "breaking the rules" is incorrect and a product of misinformation.

The rules are different because the NIC, NPC, and NPHC are separate and distinct governing bodies: none has authority or jurisdiction over the other.

Furthermore, I sincerely hope you're not insinuating that because NPHC organizations aren't governed by the NIC/NPC that they're "fake". There's about a million members of the collective NPHC organizations who would have a serious bone to pick with you about that.

true that. but you can't expect someone who doesn't know anything about it to seriously come up with anything good to say.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Shine
If there is a group on campus, that comes together to socialize, do service, or under a common professional goal, that calls themselves a fraternity or sorority and wears greek letters, THEY ARE A REAL GLO...point blank, end of story.

A beautiful run-down on an issue that isn't at all germane to the conversation . . . his use of the term "fake" is more in reference to their ACTIONS, not their principles etc.

Originally posted by Shine
It's your attitude that makes it hard to accept greek unity in this world.

. . . and your immediate dismissal of the man's point due to nitpicking a definition makes it difficult for you to do the same, apparently.

Originally posted by Shine
Aside from the fact that you're a local, and you should be MUCH more tolerant of non-IFC/PFC orgs exisitng. I guarantee you that many people look at your fraternity and it's participation in IFC stuff as you are all a bunch of wannabe rejects from IFC rush, and not real greeks. I'm not speculating, I'm sharing a cold hard fact that I know from being in a national service org, and having dated a few men in a local org.

This is a strawman . . .

Originally posted by Shine
That being said, hazing is WRONG, and so is illegal drinking. However, 4 major IFC fraternities just got booted off my campus for hazing and/or other violations. Does that mean THEY are not real greeks?

According to this man's definition, yes. Look - in this paragraph, you got the point he was trying to make - in the public eye, he's saying, there's no difference between greek letters, and this group with no higher authority (hence, not "real" greeks, who have to follow "rules") comes along and acts like a bunch of assholes.

It's truly an excellent point - he could extend it to sub rosa chapters who don't follow policy, or really any chapter . . . unfortunately, he seems to have targeted the band, and apparently we have a lot of band kids running around the forum, and they're all heated.

Originally posted by Shine
Go for greek unity man. Don't point the finger. Be proactive and do something about it.

Follow your own advice - give him advice, don't call him an idiot then agree with his thesis.

On that note -

OnePlus - perhaps the way to stop this sort of thing is through documentation, or reporting to a higher authority. If it's KKY acting like morons, contact the national officer assigned to that particular chapter, or the band leader.

Honestly, it sounds like a no-win situation - try not to take too much to heart, as without a governing body of some sort there appears to be little available for you to do.

[PandaOnProzac]

In my opinion I think every GLO out there has their black sheep chapters. I don't condone if that KKPsi chapter truly is hazing but I'm just saying every fraternity has those rare chapters that don't follow national guidelines.

As for being a "fake greek" I don't agree with that. To me what makes you a greek is the brotherhood you share. As long as that is present then you are truly a greek no matter what purpose your organization serves. I consider social, music, social science, engineering, business and all other fraternities as greeks.

[greekalumna]

Something that might encourage the organization in question to improve their standards in terms of hazing/other risk management issues would be to have your organization and other members of IFC to work on establishing a better relationship with them. Have members of IFC invite the organization to join the council as an associate organization. When an IFC or chapter based risk management program is held, invite members from their organization to participate. Or even invite the group to participate in some social event with your organization where they can see that fun social activities can be held within the guidelines stated by your university and national organization. You will be much more influential in causing them to reconsider their questionable behavior when you approach them as a friend/peer concerned about how the behavior negatively affects members of their organization than when you "tattle-tell" on them to the university.
Also you can encourage members from your organization who are in the band to join their organization as well (I'm not sure of the particular rules governing this but I wouldn't think that there would be a conflict in holding membership in both organizations but I could be wrong.) That way there could be members who would be able to say "Hey I don't know if this activity (hazing/wild party) is the best idea. Why don't we do such-and-such instead."
Ultimately, it is important to recognize that you are only truly responsible for the actions of the organization of which you are a member. It can be unfair and frustrating to have to follow certain rules why other organizations break them without receiving any penalty, but as I tell a group of young ladies in a chapter that I work with, just because other people are doing the wrong thing doesn't give you an excuse to stop doing the right thing. Make your organization the best it can be in terms of grades, social standards, and community service!
Edited to add that while the original poster may not have meant to use the term "fake Greeks" as an perjorative one, it is helpful to remember that it is one of those loaded phrases that it is perhaps best to avoid. When you have been an active member in an NIC/NPC organization and have had it been a very positive part of your college career, it can be difficult perhaps to see why someone might chose another alternative. To me choosing to be a member of NPC organization was choosing an organization that would enhance my college experience by brining me intoj a group of young women with similar interests who could serve as a support system during college and with whom I could have fun. These are the same reasons that many of my friends elected to join a professional Greek organzation or a nongreek group like the newspaper. Neither choice was better than the other in general but was better for us as individuals.

[DGWannabe]

Sotrue,
Please read my post again, especially the last part of it.I was sympathizing with Oneplus about how some organizations on campus seem to be held to lower standards by school officials.But then I talked about how they are real and so desearve to be viewed as such. I am not sure if the NPHC groups at my school are supposed to have a community based governing body or not. That was not my point. My point was that they are still greek and they are very real and they were founded with goals and ideals just like every other GLO.

**and to the person who implied that I did not know what I was talking about, I am mearly relaying my experience-which is valid.I am also getting my information (about the hazing/lack of advisor/why they refuse invitations to our functions/fundraisers etc.)from my roomate/friend and my sister in law. Both of whom are in the organization at my school.