Clemency Denied for Williams

[CrimsonTide4]

Interesting. I have some thoughts that I need to finish hammering out in response to LoJ's post and his comparisons of gangs to fraternities and sororities.

But I shall return.

[darling1]

williams bears a great deal of responsibility with the 'direction' the crips gang had gone. is he directly responsible for every idiot that joins, no; indirectly, yes. however, im not sure if his gang affiliation should be a heavy factor in deciding his fate. ideally, the evidence needs to be looked at throroughly. from what i have read, there is some discrepancy regarding his participation. williams owned the gun/s that were used in the crime but i believe there is a question whether he was actively involved in the murders. i also believe that because the system is inherently flawed, death really shouldnt be an option, but that is an entirely different discussion.

its great that he has turned his life around while in prison. he is one of the few prison success stories out there. i agree wholeheartedly that he should have been doing that all along. i have little sympathy for folks who resort to a life of crime and dont progress out of that life. we all make choices. life is hard for many.we just have to deal. im somewhat offended that people are considering him worthy of a nobel prize. there are billions of people in this world who make a difference in a community, for a people and/or for humanity. many go unnoticed and many do so without having resorted to negativity or being associated with negativity.

i do hope he doesnt die. there needs to be clear proof that tookie was the one that pulled the trigger or was the mastermind behind it. if neither is the case then he needs to stay alive and have his say.

Originally posted by bobbyearl93
Williams is not responsible of all the destruction that gang has caused. Each member of that gang made a choice (regardless of their surroundings). Now, I understand the idea growing up in a place where everyone you know (family and friends) are involved in a gang. Nevertheless, you still have choices, because there were many that group up in those neighborhoods and didn't join gangs. So anybody who joined the crips, made that decision because they chose to. NOT BECAUSE TOOKIE MADE THEM. I am not saying that he isn't responsbile for his own actions, but he is not responsible for someone else's. Besides I think he has done more than any other man can possibly do from behind bars to stop gang violence.

[UrbanizdSkillz]

Killing Williams will not bring those four people back nor will it deter new people from joining the gang or even hinder new criminal activity. Being completely against the death penalty, I believe his good deeds should take precedence over his past. I've been deeply disturbed by this situation since I started doing further research into it. I honestly do not believe that he deserves to die.

[darling1]

in your research, what have you discovered?

Originally posted by UrbanizdSkillz
Killing Williams will not bring those four people back nor will it deter new people from joining the gang or even hinder new criminal activity. Being completely against the death penalty, I believe his good deeds should take precedence over his past. I've been deeply disturbed by this situation since I started doing further research into it. I honestly do not believe that he deserves to die.

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by LionOfJudah
There are some dangerous and "unorthodox" actions in all of our BGLOs that could cause harm to members, perspective members, and in turn the community (i.e. hazing, binge drinking, unprotected sex, etc.). Now with that said, would you feel comfortable with your founders being put on trial and held accountable for the actions of some of the members of the organizations. I am sure we all know that it was not the intention of the founders of our orgs to have these types of activities be associated with our "great gatherings of men and women".

Before I begin, let me state for the record, I am not well versed/read on the totality of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the 4 murders, etc.

My response is related the question/scenario posed above.

I contend that all of the NPHC organizations were founded with a purpose of uplift that promoted brother/sisterhood, scholarship, and service.

I just read THIS.

Taken from the above link:

The Beginning
In the spring of 1971, when Tookie was 17, he was in a very different situation. He was a high school student from South Central Los Angeles. He had a fearsome reputation as a fighter and as a "general" of South Central's west side. And, around that time, Tookie, along with Raymond Lee Washington, created what would one day be a super-gang, the Crips.

Back in the day when Tookie and Raymond founded the Crips, many of the young people of South Central Los Angeles were involved with small gangs. Those gang members roamed South Central taking property from anyone who feared them, including women and children. To protect the community, Tookie and Raymond organized the Crips.

Growth
By 1979, the Crips had grown from a small Los Angeles gang to an organization with membership spread across the State of California. By this time, Crips had also become just like the gang members they had once sought to protect themselves from -- Crips had become gangbangers who terrorized their own neighborhoods.

Soon the Crips lost both their leaders: in 1979, Raymond was murdered by a rival gang member, and, that same year, Tookie was arrested. He was charged with murdering four people. In 1981, Tookie was convicted of those crimes and placed on death row.

Now I know that it states that The Crips were created to protect the community, but this isn't Fat Albert we're talking about.

To answer the question, you posed:

IF any 1 of my 22 founders was still alive today and
IF a prospective member of the organization was killed due to an act of hazing and
IF the court, judicial system attempted to indict the founder(s) for this act that was not committed by the founder herself, but by a member of the organization, then

NO, the founder is not responsible for the death of the member.

I know some folks attempt to equate fraternities and sororities to gangs, but it is an unfair comparison. By and large, our organizations are marinated in positivity.

Tookie was known as a fighter. When the Crips were born to protect, I doubt that the protection was just verbal, "Please leave our neighborhood alone" and gave them books to read.

The word gang carries a negative connotation. So, unfortunately, Tookie Williams, while his life has become positive while incarcerated, did some negative things (not necessarily the 4 murders) but his bad, unfortunately, is overshadowing the good he has done while incarcerated.

Just my thoughts.

[ladygreek]

Well said, CT4.

LoJ, the comparison of Tookie Williams as a founder of the Crips to the founders of our BGLOs really bothers me. BGLOs as a whole, do not commit the illegal acts of hazing, etc--wayward members do. I can't say the same about gangs.

Growing up, I had family members and acquaintances that belonged to rival Chicago gangs--the Vice Lords and the Disciples. There was nothing protective (except for their "own" territories,) nor uplifting about them, .

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by ladygreek
Well said, CT4.

LoJ, the comparison of Tookie Williams as a founder of the Crips to the founders of our BGLOs really bothers me. BGLOs as a whole, do not commit the illegal acts of hazing, etc--wayward members do. I can't say the same about gangs.

Growing up, I had family members and acquaintances that belonged to rival Chicago gangs--the Vice Lords and the Disciples. There was nothing protective (except for their "own" territories,) nor uplifting about them, .

**MUAH**

[allsmiles_22]

To those who have done more research, besides the books he has written, what are the other good deeds he is being credited with?

[rho4life]

I am not in favor of the DP in general. But, that's the law in CA. Fry him. I wish that all the energy that's been expended to try to "save" him had been put towards doing community service/outreach. Instead of trying to avoid his execution, why not take some time to tutor a kid who's at risk?

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by rho4life
I wish that all the energy that's been expended to try to "save" him had been put towards doing community service/outreach. Instead of trying to avoid his execution, why not take some time to tutor a kid who's at risk?

**waving my church fan**

[Phasad1913]

Originally posted by rho4life
I wish that all the energy that's been expended to try to "save" him had been put towards doing community service/outreach. Instead of trying to avoid his execution, why not take some time to tutor a kid who's at risk?

Agreed.

[darling1]

so should he be fried for his direct or indirect involvement with these killings or should he be fried because of his history with the crips?

i ask this because i have read that the guns used were his but he didnt actually do the killing.

also, i think its unfair to compare williams' motives for starting the crips to that of any bglo. to me, williams' reasons were self-serving not designed to enhance or benefit a community or mankind. whereas bglos were created to not only serve the positive motives of their respective founders but to create a history and system of philanthropy w/n our communities.

no offense, but that kind of discussion should be separate and should have no bearing on this issue.

Originally posted by rho4life
I am not in favor of the DP in general. But, that's the law in CA. Fry him. I wish that all the energy that's been expended to try to "save" him had been put towards doing community service/outreach. Instead of trying to avoid his execution, why not take some time to tutor a kid who's at risk?

[CrimsonTide4]

Today is his clemency hearing.

[DELTAQTE]

I think that if he's executed that there's gonna be some chit in the city, and a big huge Attica type response from crips in jail and on the street, I'm serious.

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by DELTAQTE
I think that if he's executed that there's gonna be some chit in the city, and a big huge Attica type response from crips in jail and on the street, I'm serious.

I actually think the same way but was having a hard time typing it out. But yes I agree.