Poor ole Jeb - Page 2

librasoul22 · #1 09-11-2002, 04:20 PM

Have no idea what happened to my real post, but it didn't quite work out... editted to try to recreate what was lost, lol.

Quote:

Originally posted by dekeguy
1. I live in Virginia.
2. Yes, I met Governor Bush on several occasions and was very positively impressed by him. He seems to me to be thoughtful in approach to serious matters, fun loving in approach to non-serious matters, unfailingly polite, widely informed and very well read, able to weigh alternatives and make decisions, a man of firm convictions, and very much a gentleman.

Hmmm..so you are not in FL to see how JEB decimated the public school system, eliminated affirmative action in college admissions (which caused minority enrollment to drop), and uses our tax money to fund NINETY THREE trips for NON-business purposes? Okay then.

Quote:

3. I do not know his daughter so I cannot comment based on any first hand information. If I had any information I would consider it personal, for, in my view, the incidental condition of daughterhood does not make one a "public figure". I leave that sort of media hype to "yellow journalists" who have never been confused with gentlemen.

So is it right then for ANYONE to be in the newspaper when they are arrested for possession? Because it happens every day. Oops! Break out the hanky for Noelle! Just like Noelle is not a public figure just because of her relation to JEB, she is NOT above the law either.

I can tell from your wording that you are somewhat conservative, so I will not even attempt to discuss drug issues/disparities with you.

Quote:

4. "Loyal Opposition" is a British phrase which refers to the party or parties not currently in power and therefore "in opposition", but presumed to be unswerving in allegience to one's lawful sovereign or government, while at the same time being perfectly free to disagree with that government and propose alternative approaches. Former Representative Lindy Boggs (D-LA), in a speech given during one of her re-election campaigns, used the phrase but modified it for American useage by substituting "unswerving allegience to one's country".
The phrase is fairly common in usage and, I believe, generally understoot to be defined in this country according to Mrs. Boggs' interpretation. So, I suppose one can be a supporter of the current administration, a member of the loyal opposition, or a traitor.

Guess that makes me a traitor huh? Um, no. a TRAITOR is:

one who, in breach of trust, delivers his country to an enemy, or yields up any fort or place intrusted to his defense, or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished; also, one who takes arms and levies war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country...

Doesn't really apply to me.

Just because I am UNHAPPY with this country and UNHAPPY with its leadership, does not make me a traitor, sorry.

pbpck · #2 09-11-2002, 04:25 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dekeguy
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by librasoul22

Um....

What state do YOU live in?

You think Jeb is "pretty cool"? Riiiiiiight.

No, I do not HAVE to be anyone's "loyal opposition". Does that even make sense? It is an oxymoron, unless you mean to be loyal in my opposition. In that case, I qualify big time, because I do not like OR support either Bush, never have, never will unless something drastic changes about them. And I am loyal to that.

*******

1. I live in Virginia.
2. Yes, I met Governor Bush on several occasions and was very positively impressed by him. He seems to me to be thoughtful in approach to serious matters, fun loving in approach to non-serious matters, unfailingly polite, widely informed and very well read, able to weigh alternatives and make decisions, a man of firm convictions, and very much a gentleman.
3. I do not know his daughter so I cannot comment based on any first hand information. If I had any information I would consider it personal, for, in my view, the incidental condition of daughterhood does not make one a "public figure". I leave that sort of media hype to "yellow journalists" who have never been confused with gentlemen.
4. "Loyal Opposition" is a British phrase which refers to the party or parties not currently in power and therefore "in opposition", but presumed to be unswerving in allegience to one's lawful sovereign or government, while at the same time being perfectly free to disagree with that government and propose alternative approaches. Former Representative Lindy Boggs (D-LA), in a speech given during one of her re-election campaigns, used the phrase but modified it for American useage by substituting "unswerving allegience to one's country".
The phrase is fairly common in usage and, I believe, generally understoot to be defined in this country according to Mrs. Boggs' interpretation. So, I suppose one can be a supporter of the current administration, a member of the loyal opposition, or a traitor.

I applaud you, dekeguy. I am proud to see an educated American voice on this board. You've said what I was thinking, but put it in an eloquent and much kinder way than I would have. Thank you.

Librasoul- It is very disenheartening to see people that hold the opinions and the character that you do in our country. Especially on a day like this. I refuse to get in any more petty immature battles on this board. My father has taught me many things about the division between liberals and conservatives that I have to accept. He has told me time and time again that he would love for me to marry any race as long as he was educated and Republican. And he is right. Republicans and Democrats have completely different ways of computing information. So I won't try to change the way you think. It isn't worth my time. It is so easy to criticize your president, but I think it arrogant to do so as you are not faced with protecting millions of lives daily, upholding this nations faith and principles.

I don't believe that any leader desires to bring his country into war, but it is a necessary evil in order to keep the peace and keep America, the country in which you so freely enjoy endless rights and benefits, as the greatest nation in the history of God's great earth.

librasoul22 · #3 09-11-2002, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pbpck

I applaud you, dekeguy. I am proud to see an educated American voice on this board. You've said what I was thinking, but put it in an eloquent and much kinder way than I would have. Thank you.

Librasoul- It is very disenheartening to see people that hold the opinions and the character that you do in our country. Especially on a day like this. I refuse to get in any more petty immature battles on this board. My father has taught me many things about the division between liberals and conservatives that I have to accept. He has told me time and time again that he would love for me to marry any race as long as he was educated and Republican. And he is right. Republicans and Democrats have completely different ways of computing information. So I won't try to change the way you think. It isn't worth my time. It is so easy to criticize your president, but I think it arrogant to do so as you are not faced with protecting millions of lives daily, upholding this nations faith and principles.

I don't believe that any leader desires to bring his country into war, but it is a necessary evil in order to keep the peace and keep America, the country in which you so freely enjoy endless rights and benefits, as the greatest nation in the history of God's great earth.

Number one -- What on earth does race have to do with anything?? Why even bring that into this?

Number two -- This is not going to be a "petty immature" battle unless you make it one. This is a topic of discussion along with most other threads on GC. If my views affect your sensitivity, deal with it. No, do not try to change my views, but do try to offer up something constructive to appreciate your point of view. I would at least respect that. I do not respect your defensive posture and holier-than-thou attitude.

Number three -- Think I am arrogant for my post? Honestly. It has nothing at all to do with Democrat, Republican, Reform Party, Green Party, whatever. It has to do with the way that he runs this country, which I don't find to be particulary effective.

Number four -- Because dekeguy said something you agree with he is a "proud, educated American"? Because I offered a dissenting opinion, does that mean I am not? Just curious.

Also...war is NOT a necessary evil. And America is NOT the greatest nation ever. That is a short-sighted belief. Do you also believe that America was discovered by Columbus?

AOIIBrandi · #4 09-11-2002, 04:49 PM

I live in Florida and support both Bushs.

Quote:

Hmmm..so you are not in FL to see how JEB decimated the public school system, eliminated affirmative action in college admissions (which caused minority enrollment to drop), and uses our tax money to fund NINETY THREE trips for NON-business purposes? Okay then.

The Florida public school system was in desperate disrepair long before Jeb ever took office. Trust me I attended one until my Junior year, and my sister graduated from one. I would say that this is one of those things that the ball has been rolling on for a LONG time. Not something you can place blame on any one Governor.

I personally believe that ending affirmative action in college admissions was a good thing. As a woman I am categorized in the minority. I would much rather be accepted to college, be offered a job, whatever... based on MY merritt and qualifications NOT on the fact that someone had to fill their quota. As for the number of enrollments dropping people should have to work for what they get - simple enough. I think you forgot that when he did this he also guaranteed the top 10% of all graduating classes in the state admission to a Florida univeristy, all you have to do is study.

Does anyone really want to start talking about the amount of trips Bill Clinton AND his family took on the American Tax Payer's dollar?? I mean he was the most travelled President in the history of this country. Were all those trips really necessary????

FuzzieAlum · #5 09-11-2002, 05:23 PM

Democrats and Republicans just aren't necessarily that far apart on issues. There are people who switch parties, and "moderate" folks can be of either party.

I used to have a job typing letters to the editor, and wowee, did I ever get sick of letters from people at either end of the spectrum who were convinced that people who held differing beliefs were trying to bring America down or deliberately refusing to listen to the "truth." Yes, there are dogmatic and ignorant people, but they hold political beliefs all over the map. Likewise, there are articulate, thoughtful, open-minded people who hold widely varying beliefs.

I personally esteem anyone who can think of a president or any other politician as more than just "mine" or "bad." A politician may be a good private citizen or a bad one, an effective politician or an ineffective one, liberal, moderate or conservative, a fun guy at parties or a drag - and any of these qualities have little effect on the others. The politicians I agree with cluster into one part of the political spectrum; those I admire for their integrity are of a much wider swath of the political fabric. Yes, it's fun to make jokes about Dan Quayle's spelling, Bill Clinton's cheeseburgers, or George Bush's pretzel problems, but we have to remember that these are just jokes, primarily designed to make us feel better about "our" politicians. A great politician could be a crappy speller, a fast-food junkie, or a Heimlich recipient, and still be a great statesman. He might have a drug addict in the family or a beautiful model. But Jeb's family doesn't make education in Florida better or worse. Bush's family doesn't make his Iraq policy more or less sound.

pbpck · #6 09-11-2002, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AOIIBrandi
I live in Florida and support both Bushs.

I personally believe that ending affirmative action in college admissions was a good thing. As a woman I am categorized in the minority. I would much rather be accepted to college, be offered a job, whatever... based on MY merritt and qualifications NOT on the fact that someone had to fill their quota. As for the number of enrollments dropping people should have to work for what they get - simple enough. I think you forgot that when he did this he also guaranteed the top 10% of all graduating classes in the state admission to a Florida univeristy, all you have to do is study.

Does anyone really want to start talking about the amount of trips Bill Clinton AND his family took on the American Tax Payer's dollar?? I mean he was the most travelled President in the history of this country. Were all those trips really necessary????

Excellent points, AOTT Brandi. I, too, qualify as a minority, but hold the same beliefs. And I knew Clinton took many trips, but I didn't know he was the MOST traveled of all our presidents.

Librasoul, you've attacked Bush for taking "93 trips on our money." But now that we have learned this interesting fact, what say you? Or does this break down to only presidents that you approve of deserve vacations?

lionlove · #7 09-11-2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pbpck

I don't believe that any leader desires to bring his country into war, but it is a necessary evil in order to keep the peace and keep America, the country in which you so freely enjoy endless rights and benefits, as the greatest nation in the history of God's great earth.

Ok, what makes you so sure that America is greater than all the other countries, empires, kingdoms and city-states that have ever existed in the history of mankind? I love America but I certainly wouldn't call it the greatest nation in the history of God's given earth.

I don't live in Florida so I know very little about Jeb Bush and his family life and I don't really care all that much either.

I do find it incredibly offensive though when posters like pbpck and dekeguy say that if you don't agree with the Bush administrator you are an uneducated traitor. One of the things that I love about our country is our ability as citizens to voice opinions about our government. This can be done with ballots, letters, protests, and by many other forms. Maybe I misread the definition of "loyal opposition" but I got the impression that if you don't agree with the current administration (whoever they may be, not just Bush) then shut up and smile cause it is your patriotic duty to present a united front. As for showing interfraternal support for Bush, well, I don't necessarily agree with my own sisters sometimes. Why should I support a guy who isn't in my organization just because he is greek?

Just a last minute thought, didn't Florida just have a contentious democratic primary? Maybe the democrats are pushing this in the media to cover their own election problems? The only reason I thought of this was because in the Massachusetts election, the democrats were all disorganized and instead of working to fix that, they focused their energy on attacking the republican candidate to cover their own problems.

(I am neither democrat nor republican, I like to criticize both)

librasoul22 · #8 09-11-2002, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pbpck

Excellent points, AOTT Brandi. I, too, qualify as a minority, but hold the same beliefs. And I knew Clinton took many trips, but I didn't know he was the MOST traveled of all our presidents.

Librasoul, you've attacked Bush for taking "93 trips on our money." But now that we have learned this interesting fact, what say you? Or does this break down to only presidents that you approve of deserve vacations?

First, for the record, I am not blaming Bush for the public schooling system. I AM blaming Bush for his voucher system which has proven detrimental to schools in my area. I have been a product of public schooling all of my life (a good deal of those years actually spent in Fla), and believe me, I know that the schools have always been poor. But vouchers are making things worse here, and those are solely a product of Bush.

pbpck? What say I? I say that no matter if one governor took trips or all of them did, does that make it right? Do YOU like to work so that our leaders can fly in their private jets to their favorite vacationing spots? I criticized Clinton for doing it and I am criticizing Bush for doing it. It really doesn't matter WHO it is, I will criticize it.

AOPi, you have presented a good argument. However, do you deny the existence of a glass ceiling? I am not saying that your hard work will not earn you what is rightfully yours. But discrimination does still exist and until it is eradicated, we will always need programs such as Affirmative Action to balance it out. Do not fall for the myth that these positions go to people who are UNDERqualified. In most instances, the posistions are filled by people of EQUAL qualification or higher.

And no, I didn't forget that wonderful "Talented Tenth" rule. I graduated with a 3.825 GPA in high school, with honors, and still was not in the top tenth of my class. So am I less deserving of that scholarship money? In essence, this rule is saying that there is 90% who do not deserve to go to college. Is that what you believe?

pbpck, I was hoping you would elaborate on your "greatest nation ever" comment.

The1calledTKE · #9 09-11-2002, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lionlove

I do find it incredibly offensive though when posters like pbpck and dekeguy say that if you don't agree with the Bush administrator you are an uneducated traitor. One of the things that I love about our country is our ability as citizens to voice opinions about our government.

Well said!

Munchkin03 · #10 09-11-2002, 08:37 PM

"I don't believe that any leader desires to bring his country into war, but it is a necessary evil in order to keep the peace and keep America, the country in which you so freely enjoy endless rights and benefits, as the greatest nation in the history of God's great earth."

--Whoa. The "greatest nation"? What information are you using to justify that? Like someone said, I love America, but we're not perfect, and hardly "the greatest nation".

I'm from Florida. To receive Bright Futures money, one must have a SAT score of at least 1200. Deny it if you want, but Blacks and Hispanics have lower scores for whatever reasons--economic, academic--whatever. Sometimes the best students don't score well. Should they be denied state money because of the proven score discrepancies? The original state system (which WASN'T broken, by the way) attempted to even the playing field. Now, the playing field is not even, and Florida's colleges and universities are suffering because of it.

Just because someone doesn't agree with your political ideology does NOT mean they're uneducated. Whoa.

pbpck · #11 09-11-2002, 08:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lionlove
[B]

Ok, what makes you so sure that America is greater than all the other countries, empires, kingdoms and city-states that have ever existed in the history of mankind? I love America but I certainly wouldn't call it the greatest nation in the history of God's given earth. [B]

I will respond to you, lionlove and a quote by librasoul.

"And America is not the greatest nation ever" -LibraSoul

Show me any other nation who would send relief to a country that they were at war with. Show me another country who shows the human compassion that we do, leading tolerance campaigns in a time of war. Show me another country who offers such economic mobility and opportunity. Show me any other country who allows it's citizens such freedom! We have become the international police and lender of the world. We are a young country who in current history has surpassed the economic thrust of any other country in so short a time. It saddens me deeply to see a US citizen state what you have just said. And who exactly do you believe is the greatest nation in the history of the world? How could you pledge the allegiance and sing the national anthem with this belief? I am not trying to attack you, but understand the rationale behind your thought process. Understand why you would question the greatness of your own country? Or is it just for argument's sake?

[B]
I do find it incredibly offensive though when posters like pbpck and dekeguy say that if you don't agree with the Bush administrator you are an uneducated traitor. One of the things that I love about our country is our ability as citizens to voice opinions about our government. [B]

Wow. It's great to be taken out of context. I don't want to speak for dekeguy, but as I interpreted, we both share the same idea. You certainly do not have to agree with all of Bush's policies. We are not condemning you for not being Republican. Even I don't full understand some of Bush's decisions. BUT I believe DURING A TIME OF WAR, a TIME WHEN OUR COUNTRY'S CITIZENS SHOULD FIND SOLIDARITY IN OUR FIGHT FOR SAFETY FOR ALL CITIZENS AND FREEDOM IN OUR COUNTRY, we should support our president. LibraSoul defined traitor. And by her definition, I do believe that it would be traitorous to stand in opposition to your president in wartime. I will hold it my duty as a proud citizen of his country to support my country's leader in his fight to protect my life and my freedom and the life and freedom of those that I love. To his abilities, President Bush is doing the best he can to protect his nation's safety.

I would like to question what LibraSoul would do in dealing with terrorist acts as she stated that war is not a necessary evil. If our country abstained from any wars, I highly doubt that our country would maintain the level of international power and respect it has today.

znteke, you were right. This is a one sided argument on this board. I am surprised though, how many liberal mided people there are on this board as I find that most greeks are rather conservative.

pbpck · #12 09-11-2002, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Munchkin03

Just because someone doesn't agree with your political ideology does NOT mean they're uneducated. Whoa.

Again, words are being put in my mouth. I simply praised dekeguy for putting forth an educated, eloquent and positive opinion. To my knowledge, I never directly said anything about the rest of you all concerning your education level.

UF_PikePC98 · #13 09-11-2002, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cluey
I think George Prescott Bush gets overshawdowed. He's out there doing good things - going to law school, trying to make a difference, being an advocate for Hispanic Americans.

Yes, I live in Florida. Yes, I am a registered Republican.

Hey Yo, if you think his son has not or does not do drugs at his age while living in Florida, going to college and being from SOUTH-FLORIDA at that, you're kidding yourself.

He may be doing good things and have this perfect image, but I'll bet all the money I have that he's not as clean as you make him out to be. Hell, the president has done cocaine in the past. His daughters were arrested for underage drinking and I'd bet it's safe to say that they've done some things that would be a stain on the family image. The thing with bush's son is the fact that he's smarter than his sister. Everyone has that person in their family where their stupid and get caught. The rest of family members just learn from their mistake and are more cautious.

I'm sure their are families out there that have members who do no drugs and never have, but those families more than likely don't even drink. Those members who do drink, probably don't do it to get trashed but rather only as a social thing.

Their family is from South Florida. That is pretty much a positive bet that there is others in their family that do drugs as well.

I'm a reg voter. I'm a republican. I do like Gov Bush. I was VERY involved in his campaign at the University of Florida. Yes, he has done somethings that I don't like but I'm happy with him leading our state, nobody is perfect. He's much better than that idiot Janet Reno.

I'm not admitting to doing drugs and I don't mean to sound like someone who is saying it's ok since we're from South-Florida, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm no angel. I've had my brush with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the DEA. I don't know ANY of my friends or frat brothers who are from West Palm Beach, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale or Boca Raton who have not had a run in with those agencies sometime in their life.

I'd like to know where you live in Florida and then where are you from........

UF

valkyrie · #14 09-11-2002, 10:06 PM

I'm a little bothered by talk of America being the greatest nation in the world. It's not that I have a problem with people being proud of their country, but I think it comes off as arrogant and is unnecessary. Why is it so important to consider a country the greatest ever? I think it's a silly thing to say, kind of like saying "I'm in the greatest sorority ever." Every country is different, and there are good and bad aspects of each and every one of them. Why must we pass judgment on what is the best? Why can't we just appreciate the differences and be proud of our country if we want without sounding like snobs? Saying that America is the greatest is, to me, a slap in the face to other countries.

I also am not so sure about the respect that other countries have for America. Yes, of course we are well respected by many, but we are also disliked by many, hated by many, and many view us as a big bully overstepping our bounds. I think that instead of folding our arms and saying "We're the greatest ever, nyah nyah," we may learn as a nation from listening to what others have to say about us, positive and negative -- especially negative.

Although I probably felt compelled to post because I agree with librasoul, I don't think that it is "traitorous to stand in opposition to your president in wartime." Librasoul is voicing an opinion, and I for one think that the freedom to voice an opinion is one of the most important freedoms we as Americans have. I would much rather hear people speak out against the government than have everyone standing behind it without thinking or questioning anything.

As for affirmative action, I think that it is only fair because it serves as an equalizing mechanism for people who were disadvantaged their whole lives through poverty or a substandard educational system. I remember reading a quote somewhere, but I can't remember who said it. It was something along the lines of affirmative action is just putting everyone on a level playing field -- just like you wouldn't expect someone to run a race with no shoes, how can you expect someone from a poor neighborhood with crappy schools to go to college and compete on equal footing with people who grew up in rich areas with excellent schools and many opportunities not afforded to many in poorer areas? Affirmative action is just giving those people shoes so they can compete. I think that it is our duty as a country to provide those shoes.

lovelyivy84 · #15 09-11-2002, 10:20 PM

1. The fact that anyone could consider people who disagree wth the President and voice their opposition to be "traitors", and yet also consider themselves patriotic Americans is perplexing. "Our" forefathers fought and died so that we would all have EXACTLY that right. It is in doing so- criticizing our national leaders and/orpolicies -that we exercise what makes this country great. Anyone who would silence THOSE cries might as well rip up our constitution and bill of rights.

2. Noelle Bush- The media has as much right to publicise her life, as she and her family have to use their political power to ensure that she goes to rehab and not to jail. Neither action sounds particularly savory, does it?

3. I would support any action that I felt was sincerely directed towards ensuring that what happened 9-11 NEVER EVER happened again. Anyone in NYC, whether they were fortunate enough to have a bloody, dusty survivor come home to them or not, would agree to that. But our government is not doing that. Logic points to the "axis of evil" as being centered in Saudi Arabia and our government is doing NOTHING about it, because our President and VP have to protect all their oil buddies. After the overwhelming evidence we've seen of Saudi involvement in terrorist activities, war in Iraq seems like a red herring to me- the president ahs to look like he's doing SOMTHING doesn't he?

I LOVE this country. I have members of my family who put their life on the line for it every day. I love it not because of what it IS or has been, but because of what it WANTS to be, the vision of a democracy with justice and equality. You people who want to silence others threaten ALL of that.