"Texas fraternity's gunfire leads to brief police standoff"

[NWguy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As far as liability goes, we have insurance. As far as participating willingly in inherently risky endeavors, there's a thing called "assumption of the risk" which mostly protects organizations such as ours for the risky and ultimately harmful decisions some of our members make while at organized functions. I don't really care about all of that though.

In this case, what we know is that guns were fired and that an initiation ceremony was held. We also know that there were a few guns seized (which is routine) and that there were some low level citations. We know that there is an investigation ongoing and it's likely that's all we'll ever know.

I don't necessarily see a huge liability issue here absent other factors and of course, depending on the acreage of the land. My assumption, which I think is much safer than yours, is that young men in rural Texas firing guns are relatively harmless.

Kevin, thank you for discussing this in a rational manner without trying to make me feel like an idiot. I think we can agree to disagree, but I respect your points.

[Sciencewoman]

I do think the liability insurance issue is genuine. As a house corp. president, I get the update emails from the insurance agency that is used by most NPC groups and they're on ultra-alert for all kinds of potential lawsuit issues...on and off property. The potential for increased rates and claims has dictated sorority policy changes in several areas. I just don't think this chapter's insurance carrier would be thrilled with this event.

[Kevin]

I love that there's just not enough information in the article to really figure out what happened here.

"The group didn't surrender when police shouted instructions over a loudspeaker."

This occurred on a ranch. Were the men inside or outside when the police arrived? How far away were police? Were there trees or obstacles obstructing views?

There's not a single mention of alcohol. You would think that the police might have mentioned underage drinking if underage drinking was going on. Again, if we're talking about rural Texas, despite stereotypes and especially with nary a word from any party regarding alcohol, to simply assume it was there is borderline offensive.

[DubaiSis]

Things may have changed A.LOT. since I was in college but there is (was) a pretty clear if/then statement of If fraternity get together Then alcohol. That's not about Texas or about people on ranches or people who like guns. It's about fraternities. Maybe it's wrong and maybe it's offensive, but that is the only reality most of us know in that respect.

We are missing a bunch of information here, but I think it is pretty safe to say gun use is a huge liability. Yes, accidents happen even in the most careful of situations. And as an advisor (I'm not one right now) the only and I mean ONLY way I'd approve an event like that would be at a licensed facility so that they could take the liability, not me. Bunch of angels who never did anything wrong who want to go shoot guns on private property after dark? No. There is just no reason why this is an option a legitimate function needs. And the reality is these guys are probably not a bunch of angels; they're normal college age kids who need way more adult supervision than they think.

[DGTess]

I don't think it's fair to say this was planned as a shooting activity, either. Despite our insistence that we're for "men" and "women" - in reality, in today's world, we treat our members as if they were children, so no, no advisor is going to approve an outing where "we're gonna go to a ranch and fire off a few rounds into the air".

What we know: No one was hurt.
What we don't know:
- There is no statement that the firearms were being used recklessly.
- There is no indication that alcohol was involved.
- There is no indication that any of those involved were to young to be handling firearms (18 is the legal age to own, and carry long guns; 21 is the legal age to carry handguns; there are no age restrictions on use, but use by minors does in most states require permission if not active presence of a parent or guardian)

If those involved were too far away to hear loudspeakers (again - we don't know), it might be safe to assume they were also away from inhabited buildings and/or wearing ear protection. Hmmmmm, guess we don't want to consider that they may have been acting safely.

[generallygreek]

My 2 cents: I don't care if people want to exercise their 2nd amendment rights; just because I don't personally have an interest in firearms doesn't mean other people can't or shouldn't. Who am I to tell people how to spend their free time?

On the other hand, I am a firm believer in responsible gun ownership. If you own a gun, you need to recognize that it can be used to hurt or kill people; it's important to be mindful of that fact, and to handle a firearm the same way you might handle a sharp kitchen knife or a bow and arrow. The majority of decent, legal gun owners do all these things, but every once in a while I think people forget how much these guns can hurt people, because they haven't seen it happen themselves.

If you check out the Wikipedia article on celebratory gunfire, it has some info about firing off rounds up into the air and what the consequences can be. Bullets that come up have to come down; sometimes, they come down harmlessly, near where they were fired--but sometimes, they come down on people and their property. Depending on the angle you fire at, bullets can arc miles away from where you are, so even if you're on a large piece of property when you fire, it's not a guarantee that the bullet is going to come down someplace safe.

According to the article, anyone in Texas who injures or kills someone with a stray bullet can face "serious felony charges." As someone who's only 21, I can sure as hell tell you that I would never risk becoming a felon for the brief adrenaline rush that comes from firing a gun like that. Having that on your record absolutely ruins your job prospects and strips you of a number of personal rights... I can understand wanting to shoot some guns with your friends, but it's important to consider the consequences of all the actions you take (even the non-gun-related ones).

[Kevin]

Here's the thing I hate about this thread. Without a shred of evidence, many of us are ready to shut this chapter down because they MUST have been doing something horrible--and maybe they were. But as Greeks, we need to be in the business of defending our organizations to the public and realizing that most organizations have very capable alumni volunteers like us involved and people are generally making good decisions. Let's give our own the benefit of the doubt. If we are all so negative about our own, why would we expect outsiders to be any more charitable?

[generallygreek]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Here's the thing I hate about this thread. Without a shred of evidence, many of us are ready to shut this chapter down because they MUST have been doing something horrible--and maybe they were. But as Greeks, we need to be in the business of defending our organizations to the public and realizing that most organizations have very capable alumni volunteers like us involved and people are generally making good decisions. Let's give our own the benefit of the doubt. If we are all so negative about our own, why would we expect outsiders to be any more charitable?

This is fair--looking at my post now, I think it is a bit excessive for the actual reporting content of the article (though I won't edit it, since that would just be cowardly at this point). Guns and gun handling are a very inflammatory debate, I think. Our political opinions are overriding our sense of unity regarding our Greek brothers and sisters. Maybe we should take a step back until more information comes out.

[Kevin]

I agree!