The men really aren't there

[James]

I have had the advantage of wisdom imparted by elderly people over the years, especially elderly women.

This is a distillation of several conversations and observations:

In the traditional society most of us subscribe to on the most basic unconscious level, women are considered the Supporting Actresses of relationships.

They are there to enhance the relationship and to derive somewhat of their status from men.

When I say this, in the conventional STORY of male and female relationships as reflected in various forms of media, the man is supposed to be a little more than the woman, better educated, more worldly, makes more money etc.

Theoretically this framework allows the woman to also grow and develop without threatening the marriage itself. It also fits the the idea that many times men were significantly older than their brides . . . again it allowed women to grow within the marriage without threatening the man or the marriage.

Keep in mind that this was a cultural mythos and there were a lot of exceptions. However, when a lot of younger women are sighing over the romantic way that men are treating women in older movies, the setting is from this type of concept.


Today going dutch at your local fast food restaurant can be a high point in the dating career of a college coed.

This story is changing because the players have changed, or more importantly the women have.

To be continued

[amycat412]

don't you think the women have HAD to change over the past 30-40 years?

with the cost of living being what it is in major cities (especially), a two income family is necessary. obviously a two (or more) degreed 2 income family is going to provide the best life.

i think its naive to assume women's roles would not change when the whole world around us changed.

men have changed too, at LEAST as much as women.

[James]

Continuing: women are growing and men mostly are not.

Women are changing, they are becoming better educated, more worldly, and earning more money.

Also the STORY for women is changing as competing STORIES vie for dominance. There is the STORY that women should be driven career women that don't need men (hence vibrating rabbits and artifical insemination). As well as the STORY thats says a woman can have it all, career and family (where will she find the time?).

But all the new STORIES are framed against the old STORY that women should get married, marry a man that is somewhat more than them, a man that can take care of them, and have children that they raise at least for some years, full time. And we all know that the old STORY has a lot more that comes with it.

So now we have changing world where more people go to college, but most of those people are women, and the numbers are much more dramatic overall for women versus men.

So we have a whole population of women that have changed and grown to a level that their gender was previously discouraged from attaining. As well as careers and much increased earning potential.

Men on the other hand haven't changed, we already went to college (although more attend now) we already earned good money, and we were already had options for sophistication . . .

to be continued

[valkyrie]

I honestly don't care if a guy is college educated. I *do* care that he is intelligent, sexy and fun, but education isn't so important to me, nor do I care how much money he makes.

Is my viewpoint very uncommon?

[James]

This leads us to the present dilemna: Are women snobs?

I mean this in a good sense.

If the old idea that a man was supposed to be somewhat more is true, then it is indeed harder for women to find mates in some ways than ever before.

I think there has been some research on this: women usually don't like to date men with lower educational levels, or income levels than them.

I have seen some articles I believe in the New Yorker and other magazines that have observed that single women making past a certain income are having trouble finding mates because they want someone with at least comparable education and income levels, preferably greater.

I think its one of those things that don't bother women in the short run but grate in the long haul.

More later . . .

[lovelyivy84]

Well if the rest of you won't admit it then I will. I want a college educated husband.

Sorry if that makes me an elitist snob, but that IS what I want. He doesn't have to be a Hah-vud grad or anything, but have an andvanced degree! I worked TOO HARD to get mine and maybe this is just my opinion, or maybe one that is influenced by my family's immigrant background, but I see that degree as a sign of ambition, which I like.

Also, at some point in my life I will probably have children. If that happens, I want to be home to raise them (oh such a quaint old-fashioned notion I know, but I have seen TOO MANY good women torn up over the choice between career and home, and yes it definitely DOES make a difference on their children). For that to happen, the man needs to make enough so that I can stay home comfortably.

Chances are increased if that man has a degree.

I just wonder if any of you women who are deploring those of us who know what we want in a man have ever even had a serious relationship with a man who didn't have a college education, or are you having some kind of knee jerk reaction? It's nice to say that it doesn't matter, but for me at least, I am looking at the reality instead of the rosey world of the way things "should" be.

[librasoul22]

Does a college degree necessarily equal ambition though? That is the question I wrestle with. I am a VERY ambitious indivudal who knows what I want. And I ALWAYS get it...or else!

And yes I am in college, almost done....but I have almost come to realize that college educates you to make money for OTHER people. I am not stupid. I know that the diploma will make me marketable, but do I really want that?

I respect men who know what they want and know how to get it. Sometimes that doesn't take so much a college degree as it does vision. And as long as my man can match me in that department we should be okay.

In essence, a college dgree is definitely a plus, but not a necessity. Sorry to straddle the fence, lol!

[Kevin]

And yes I am in college, almost done....but I have almost come to realize that college educates you to make money for OTHER people. I am not stupid. I know that the diploma will make me marketable, but do I really want that?

The capitalist system is great, isn't it? Even if you make money for just yourself (which I don't know if that's possible) you're still making money for the IRS.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by ktsnake


The capitalist system is great, isn't it? Even if you make money for just yourself (which I don't know if that's possible) you're still making money for the IRS.

It all depends on the occupation....

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
Well if the rest of you won't admit it then I will. I want a college educated husband.

Sorry if that makes me an elitist snob, but that IS what I want. He doesn't have to be a Hah-vud grad or anything, but have an andvanced degree! I worked TOO HARD to get mine and maybe this is just my opinion, or maybe one that is influenced by my family's immigrant background, but I see that degree as a sign of ambition, which I like.

Also, at some point in my life I will probably have children. If that happens, I want to be home to raise them (oh such a quaint old-fashioned notion I know, but I have seen TOO MANY good women torn up over the choice between career and home, and yes it definitely DOES make a difference on their children). For that to happen, the man needs to make enough so that I can stay home comfortably.

Chances are increased if that man has a degree.

I just wonder if any of you women who are deploring those of us who know what we want in a man have ever even had a serious relationship with a man who didn't have a college education, or are you having some kind of knee jerk reaction? It's nice to say that it doesn't matter, but for me at least, I am looking at the reality instead of the rosey world of the way things "should" be.

Oooh, I hope you're not reading from *my* message that I deplore anyone who wants anything. I don't think that anyone is an elitist snob, either. I am just saying that *for me* it doesn't matter.

Yes, I have had serious relationships with non-college educated men, and relationships with men who have advanced degrees (as I do). I honestly do not care. A degree does NOT equal ambition; just because someone has an advanced degree does not mean that he is ambitious or that he can even hold down a job -- believe me, I speak from experience.

My opinion might be colored by the fact that I don't want to have children now and doubt that I ever will, and even if I did, I don't see myself staying home with them.

For some reason (and I don't know where it comes from because my mom was a stay at home mom) I just could never, ever imagine myself being financially dependent on ANYONE. Please don't read this as hating on those of you who would make that choice because that is not my intent and I have all the respect in the world for EVERY woman, regardless of what she chooses to do with her life. It's just not my thing. For me, as long as a guy can support himself, that's cool with me because I intend to always support myself. To me, I want an equal, not anyone who is "a little more" and anyway, who could be "a little more" than I am?!

[James]

I don't think your opinion is very uncommon, especially when love and infatuation are invovled. IT just seems that statistically when it comes to long term relationships and marriage more women are choosing for better educated and higher income men. This might actually apply to more women as they leave their colege years.

I doubt if it is a conscious choice, but rather unconscious selection. And I think there might be genuinely less respect for men that don't seem as capable or as ambitious as their female partner. Its a matter of societal expectation.

Originally posted by valkyrie
I honestly don't care if a guy is college educated. I *do* care that he is intelligent, sexy and fun, but education isn't so important to me, nor do I care how much money he makes.

Is my viewpoint very uncommon?

[FuzzieAlum]

I don't want kids. I don't care if my man is ambitious (well, assuming he's ambitious enough to bathe and dress himself...). But I've never been interested in any men who weren't at least college attendees, and I haven't dated any non-graduates (since I've graduated myself, since in school I dated other students). It's not a policy, mind you.

I don't think one has to be a snob to want to date someone who has a similar educational attainment. In today's world, most people who haven't gone to college are not interested in intellectual pursuits. They may very well be smart or ambitious. They may be nice guys and devastatingly handsome. I _personally_ find that I have more in common with other people who are college graduates. College can very much shape one's outlook on life.

Sociologically speaking, we usually end up with people about as good-looking as us, from a similar socio-economic background. Why should education be any different?

[carnation]

In this state, most of the colleges have 55% women and 45% men. There have been a lot of theories advanced as to why that is but nothing concrete has been figured out.

I have a Ph.D. While I was pursuing it, many people informed me that if I got it, no one would want to marry me because "your degrees would make men feel inferior". I wasn't insisting on a husband with a doctorate but I wanted someone who was intelligent no matter what degree he held.

So...my husband has 2 bachelor's degrees and some work done on a master's. We don't know if he'll ever finish it but it honestly doesn't matter. He's as intelligent as I am although it's in different areas--like he's a whole lot more mathematically inclined than I'll ever be and knows much more about the physical and social sciences! Believe me, it evens out.

I think the key is to find someone with equal intelligence.

[justamom]

I am a snob. I would date but never consider marrying a non degreed man. The only exception might have been a farmer because that lifestyle would suit me.

I have DRUMMED into my daughter's head-
Get a degree, be a profesional, choose a career that allows you financial freedom. All this because of the divorce rate and the number of women and children living in a single wage earner household.

The higher eduacated she is, the higher educated the men she is in contact with. Pickings get slim for women the older they get and it becomes harder to meet men in general. This summer has been an eyeopener for her. Lots of unplanned pregnancies, marriages, live-in situations happening with HS friends and acquaintances-she is stunned at the number of people who are so young yet seem so hellbent on jumping into "life" with so little preparation-from one provider (parents) to another(boyfriend/husband) without attempting to experience any form of independance.

We have talked about how sheer #'s of available/desireable men decreases as you move though the education system and eventually into the workforce, but if she is prepared to financially stand on her own, it can make things far easier as she waits for "Mr. Right".

[FHwku]

I don't mind that my school is overwhelmingly female.