Another reason to get rid of undergrads

[DOVE1920]

Originally posted by legacypbs
Hold on to your hats, but Latino greeks namely the latinas of Sigma Lambda Upsilon pledge above ground. Damas as they call them, dress alike, walk in line, uphold what is called social probation, and take part in intense information sessions. By the attention being drawn to who is in fact on line they have to be wearyful of physically endangering the ladies. At various times they also greet other greek organizations, much as we do in probate shows. This is an enlightening experience and one that I feel we would benifit from.

Well you must also pay attention to the fact that these organizations are fairly new (1980s) and haven't had any lawsuits. I bet you once they get one good lawsuit they will be just like us with MIP. More importantly this process is sanctioned by their national body....

[GiggyZ]

They don't have the history we do with hazing. If something ever happens or if campus administrations begin to get pressured, they too will have a process that is less reflective of an outward showing of submission but one that is more based on education.

[legacypbs]

My point was that it is sanctioned by their national body. Their national body had sense enough to organize their process instead of shun it. Individuals act as if pledging does not serve a purpose. If you think it doesn't that means one of two things.
1) You didn't pledge
2) The person who was in charge of your process didn't know what they were doing.

My whole point with this discussion is Yes hazing is wrong but is MIP the right solution.

[DOVE1920]

Originally posted by legacypbs
My point was that it is sanctioned by their national body. Their national body had sense enough to organize their process instead of shun it. Individuals act as if pledging does not serve a purpose. If you think it doesn't that means one of two things.
1) You didn't pledge
2) The person who was in charge of your process didn't know what they were doing.

My whole point with this discussion is Yes hazing is wrong but is MIP the right solution.

Who said pledging didn't serve a purpose? We've had MIP since 1990 so if people wanted to bring back a organized pledge process they have had 12 years to rally and bring it back.

[GiggyZ]

Originally posted by legacypbs
My point was that it is sanctioned by their national body. Their national body had sense enough to organize their process instead of shun it. Individuals act as if pledging does not serve a purpose. If you think it doesn't that means one of two things.
1) You didn't pledge
2) The person who was in charge of your process didn't know what they were doing.

My whole point with this discussion is Yes hazing is wrong but is MIP the right solution.

As usual we accuse folks who are against traditonal pledging as either not experiencing it or having folks who didn't know what they were doing.

The Membership Intake Process in its current evolution may not be to some members liking. I have no issues with a Membership Intake Process that focuses on education. No one needs to take part in the traditional pledge process in order to prove themselves worthy of membership. As with anything we can make changes and many organizations have over the years in order to balance the concerns of the membership with the needs of the organization (sometimes this is not easy to accomplish).

Too often we focus on MIP as the great boogey man without understanding that as long as WE decide that WE are not going to make any effort to FOLLOW the rules that we currently have, they will be no movement toward change. If we can't follow MIP without murder and mayhem, what on earth makes us think that we can restore traditional pledging without allowing hundreds of Archonian & Crescent starved non-financial hazers to reek havoc on our organizations, which I, as a financial member, will either have to pay for or stand by as a lawsuit victor and her momma an 'em end up with the keys to the International Headquarters?

If we don't like MIP, there is a way to change it...and it starts on the floor of a convention. Frankly, I like the MIP concept and do not support a return to anything resembling my pledge process 20 (21 on April 8) years ago.

Did my Delta Delta Chapter Sorors know what they were doing? Yep, and some of them are the sharpest Zetas in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have DD roots.

Learning this organization's rich history, applying that history to our contemporary lifestyle, participating in national programs, learning how to structure local programming to meet community needs, and preparing for leadership was a part of my pledge process.

MIP CAN TEACH YOU ALL OF THAT also if you do it correctly. And that is the problem...too many of us are not.

[legacypbs]

What is the difference in a club and a fraternity/sorority?

[decadence]

Originally posed by legacypbs: What is the difference in a club and a fraternity/sorority?

May I? A club generally speaking lacks many components of the fraternity/sorority model. A fraternity (pronoun used hereafter for brevity to comment on both org types in general) has alumni (graduate) involvement where a club tends to exist for its members only when they are part of a particular organisation of set people (eg at a college). A fraternity has interconnected chapters across cities, states, even countries. A club might well be part of a "governing body" but there is little similarity between one club and another. A fraternity has noble ideals steeped in tradition - as important today as they were long ago; which members swear to uphold. Precious few clubs will go beyond focusing on the immediate aim of their club eg sporting prowess. A fraternity's members are bonded through an (inter)national collective of history, brotherhood, common aims and ideals.

I hazard a guess that legacypbs is in favour of pledging that some might describe as hazing? There have been articles written on it e.g. Charles Smoot who was pledged "hard" and is a member of a fraternity (APA). I have never gone through similar things but telling me I wouldn't possibly understand on the basis of that just doesn't wash.

It is perfectly possible to have a group without "hard pledging"; without just asking if they can pay the $, sign their name and that's it to be in. Members should not be defined by red marks on their posterior, bags under their eyes but by their heart and commitment to the organisations aims, service and brotherhood. Both groups which "pledge hard" and groups which have a defined education process without (for example) paddling might have 'ghost' members later but the latter group won't threaten its future by its actions.

[SIAsensacion]

I know most of the posts on this thread are a little old, but the thread is quite interesting, and I wanted to add my perspective as a member of a Latina sorority.

I thought the comment made by lecacypbs about Latino Greeks was very interesting: "Hold on to your hats, but Latino greeks namely the latinas of Sigma Lambda Upsilon pledge above ground. Damas as they call them, dress alike, walk in line, uphold what is called social probation, and take part in intense information sessions. By the attention being drawn to who is in fact on line they have to be wearyful of physically endangering the ladies. At various times they also greet other greek organizations, much as we do in probate shows. This is an enlightening experience and one that I feel we would benifit from.” What legacypbs said about LGLOs is true (and I am speaking in GENERAL about LGLOs here, NOT about my specific sorority): many LGLOs pledge above ground for all or part of their process. Each LGLO has their own process and practices, but some of the pledging characteristics/activities of some LGLOs include: uniforms, walking on line (locked up with LBs/LSs), greeting big brothers/big sisters, serious/stern look on the face, always walking/running fast and with a purpose, cutting corners, eating in unison, not walking on grass, social probation, chanting, probates, etc. Each LGLO has their own practices, and there is a large variety of pledging practices among LGLOs, but most have some part of their pledging process above ground. Beneath the surface of above ground pledging, many LGLOs are serious about educating during the pledge process, and pledges learn about themselves, their LBs/LSs, their organization, and the Latino culture. The advantage that a lot of LGLOs (at least the smart and organized ones) have is that their process is sanctioned by nationals and STRICTLY controlled, and safety of the pledges is always carefully maintained. This would probably be next to impossible for BGLOs considering the size of your orgs, but for LGLOs, most of which are 13-30 years old, our orgs are small enough to maintain careful control of the membership process. Having the process closely watched and controlled by nationals allows the best of both worlds: the benefits of working hard and earning your letters, without the dangers of crazy letter-wearers pledging members underground and endangering the organization.

It’s true that our orgs are young, and most have not been hit with lawsuits yet. Whether or not we get hit with lawsuits, above ground pledging may not last long (considering the problems that lawsuits cause for ALL greeks, not just the org dealing with it). I hope that BGLOs and all other greeks are able to come up with a membership process that first and foremost does not endanger potential members, but at the same time satisfies current members and allows potential and new members the benefits of working hard and the pride of earning letters rather than signing on the dotted line.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by GiggyZ


If we don't like MIP, there is a way to change it...and it starts on the floor of a convention. Frankly, I like the MIP concept and do not support a return to anything resembling my pledge process 20 (21 on April 8) years ago....


MIP CAN TEACH YOU ALL OF THAT also if you do it correctly. And that is the problem...too many of us are not.

You all are having a lovely discussion here...just wanted to put my 6 cents in!

Giggy Z you are soo right! The place to change the current state of BGLO's is on the floor of a convention, BUT...most of the people complaining about it...are not FINANCIAL or ACTIVE! And if they are at a national convention...they are there hanging out..not about the business of the fraternity or sorority!!!

I think we are all in a catch 22. I am of the MIP era...and I will say that the only process I will EVER envy is the process above ground PRE 1990...cuz to many old heads...nobody has been "PLEDGED" since 1990! I don't think MIP offers quite enough...it turns the whole "process" into too much of a business... But at the same time...I understand why it is the way it is....those that came before us made it this way....So who is really to blame? WHile I cherish my process... I would love to see an above ground process come back with modifications...

An Aside:
I wish those in greekdom that shed so many blood and tears....and claimed their process to be "better" or "superior" to MIP would come back and take an ACTIVE part in their organizations and stop simply complaining!!

[brickhouse492]

I'm not in a GLO but while I read the forum and listen to debates like this, I am very concerned. Too bad everyone can't be brought in the same way that it was done in the beginning years (however that might have been). Founders of your GLOs must have had a concrete formula designed to choose the best candidates for membership because all of you have dynamic histories. I wish everyone was brought in the same way from beginning to end.

[luv4blu-n-white]

Well, when I was an undergrad, the organization I belong to was suspended therefore I could not join. I had to join Grad through the MIP process, and I did not like it at all!

I wish I had the opportunity to go "on line" officially. Now I have to do it on the down low tip.

Now I am not saying that I want to be hazed, because hazing and pledging are TWO DIFFENT THINGS!

I just want to have the experience of pledging.

[TheEpitome1920]

When will people realize that its not HOW you came in but what you DO once you get in??? I know people who were online for MONTHS and can't write a proper officer report or don't know parlimentary procedure. But they are the first ones to say they have no pen pals or paper cuts. BOO! The madness has got to stop. If all people want to do is "pledge" rather than handle business then I would rather they seek membership elsewhere.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
When will people realize that its not HOW you came in but what you DO once you get in??? I know people who were online for MONTHS and can't write a proper officer report or don't know parlimentary procedure. But they are the first ones to say they have no pen pals or paper cuts. BOO! The madness has got to stop. If all people want to do is "pledge" rather than handle business then I would rather they seek membership elsewhere.

TheEpitome1920,
People will never realize this as long as "members" continue to look down upon and degrade those that come in a different
way

[csula_1_zeta]

Hey I totally understand where luv 4 blu and white is coming from. I too attended a school where Zeta's were not active and I contacted my schools near me but did not get a good response... i was told by one that because i was not a student at their school, i could not be apart of their chapter and i had to go through the grad chapter. Dont get me wrong, i have met some wonderful women in the graduate chapter but i still feel like a lost soul... i wish i had a line name and number but because of all the hazing practices those before me did, i could not experience the sisterhood of being online!! Sorors and Frat should not hate us because of the way we came into the organization but give us praise for the things we are doing while in the organization!!


Zeta Phi Beta Sorority
Alpha Psi Zeta Chapter~ Host of 84th Boule

Evil Intentions with a Good Heart

[GiggyZ]

Originally posted by luv4blu-n-white
Well, when I was an undergrad, the organization I belong to was suspended therefore I could not join. I had to join Grad through the MIP process, and I did not like it at all!

I wish I had the opportunity to go "on line" officially. Now I have to do it on the down low tip.

Now I am not saying that I want to be hazed, because hazing and pledging are TWO DIFFENT THINGS!

I just want to have the experience of pledging.

You want the experience of pledging? Stay financial and active in your org. Attend and participate in chapter meetings. Attend the business sessions at your state, regional and national conferences. Run for an office. Chair a committee. I GUARANTEE that if you do these things over a lifetime of membership in and service with your org that YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANING OF PLEDGING. (Can I get an amen from someone who knows what I am talkin' 'bout?)

Remember the REAL WORK begins after the initiation process.

Maybe I am getting old and becoming the thing that some youngin's seem to fear--a old head, middle aged, office holding, dues paying, conference attending, rule obeying member. Be careful--YOU TOO may become one of us some day provided the orgs are not sued out of existence.