American Women and Relationships?

[Peaches-n-Cream]

There are millions of men and women from all over the planet who desperately want to live in the U.S.A. so badly that they are willing to marry someone that he or she doesn't know just to live here. The American Dream lures millions of people here both illegally and legally annually. From what I have seen and read, many women are better of here in loveless, arranged marriages than in their native countries. Russia and many countries have been plagued by poverty, war, violence, crime, and hunger. Their career options are limited in ways that we can't even imagine. In many third world nations, women have no choice but to go into prostitution. It's tragic. From that perspective, I can fully understand why a young woman would want to marry an American man she doesn't know very well. If I were in that position, I might do the same thing and be grateful to clean and do laundry everyday because the alternative is stomach turning. I consider myself fortunate to be an American woman in the 21st century with limitless possibilities.
BTW, traditional arranged marriages are less likely to lead to divorce than modern "love" marriages because people are introduced based on similar values and goals. I don't know if this applies to the Russian mail order brides.

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by James
Some background:

Someone I had met at work had gotten married to this woman from Russia that he had been a sort of pen pal with. And I remembered that another guy I knew had been on vacation in Russia and did the same thing.

And then I recalled yet another conversation (this is a seperate thing) with a guy that was saying they were arranging some marriages where the man would bring the woman over and be married for 2 years for a great deal of money. And that the man would decline the money or make some spliiting arrangement because he wanted to stay married.

The two guys I first mentioned are good looking guys in good physical shape (i.e. they train a lot) and are reasonably successful in their fields. A good catch you would think, and they did indeed date a lot. Neither had ever been married, had no children and are in their 30's.

In conversations with these guys they say they prefer the foreign culture to Americanized women because they seem to be more famlily orientated with better relationship skills. And cited the lack of a lot of these skills as the reason why dating Americanized women is hard.

I say Americanized menaing women that have embraced mainstream American vlaues and behaviors.

This has been echoed by other men that I have talked to who also believe this.

So I was wondering, especially from some of the ladies that have some trans generational experience, if they have noticed that relationship skills are on a decline among females?

We'll leave men out of it this time lol.

Needless to say neither man mentioned above was very popular with a lot of American women when they came back.

James you are going to have to clarify.

No one is exactly sure of what you are talking about.

If you meant things like tenderness and communication in terms of relationship skills, then I would have to say that I have seen no evidence that American women are lacking those qualities and more than internationals. But that does not even seem like the kind of thing one can quantify, much less judge and I don't hink you would really ask us to. So I am ruling that out.

The common assumption is that relationship skills as you are using the term means subservience and a home oriented mindset. If that is what you meant then please say it. If that is what you meant then please refer to SilverTurtle's post. I think she made a good point.

As for their lack of popularity with American women when they came back, that is amusing. I wouldn't be mad. I would pity anyone who feels they have to buy a wife, or that they can't deal with a woman who will be an equal in their relationship. That's just sad and yes they would probably lose a great deal of my respect. But why be angry? She gets what she wants, he gets what he wants. Not my business past that.

[aggieAXO]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84



As for their lack of popularity with American women when they came back, that is amusing. I wouldn't be mad. I would pity anyone who feels they have to buy a wife, or that they can't deal with a woman who will be an equal in their relationship. That's just sad and yes they would probably lose a great deal of my respect. But why be angry? She gets what she wants, he gets what he wants. Not my business past that.

Ditto, if they want these american men they can have them-enough said.

[James]

I can't be more specific because I am relating other people's experiences and impresions.

But I thought the topic to be pointed enough that it might spark some discourse on changing gender roles. Maybe the thread should have been just: changing gender roles in relationships.

I know that men over the last few decades have gone through a lot of role confusion and upheaval as to how we are supposed to behave in relation to women.

Some skills we have never been noted for (communication ability) but suddenly seems to be demand, whereas other behaviors such as door openings, tradtional date set-ups etc have become different also.

In fact the expectations seem to be different enough on both sides that there are some real problems. And the media complicates it. Certainly Cosmo is enough to make anyone neurotic.

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by aephi alum


Hear hear!!

There are a lot of men out there who feel threatened by the idea of an independent-minded woman who has a career and other priorities than being a housewife - someone who went to college for something other than an "MRS degree". It's "ok" for men to have those attitudes, because they're men. We as women are expected to submit, stay home, cook and clean, and make babies.

And it's not as if I even have a problem with that. One of my best friends from high school was a stay at home mom for six years. She just decided to go back to school to finish her bachelor's degree in Early Childhood Education. I supported her decision to stay home, and I support her decision to go back to school.

The problem I have is when men try to pit women who make different choices against each other, placing blame for the so-called "downfall of American culture" on women who have decided to work outside the home. That's the real tragedy in all of this, that women find it hard to look at each other from behind their choices.

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by KSig RC

Perhaps my lack of 'real-world' experience with maintaining a career and a family shines through here - but isn't it a fallacy of false dilemma to say it's one way or the other? Why can't a woman in a marriage situation be family-oriented, and still be self-actualized through a career and outside interests?

Help me out here if I'm wrong . . .

It's very much a fallacy to suggest this, which is why the argument that they have to go outside of the United States to find women who don't have these "Americanized" careerist atitudes doesn't hold water with me. Most women aren't either/or. Most women in American society have been dancing on the balance of both/and for decades, and don't seem to be any worse for wear because of their dual roles.

What's really at stake (in my opinion) is that these men want someone to be available to them, only to them, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A woman with outside interests is a threat to them, therefore they go outside the country to find women who are dependent on them not only for their livelihood, but for their very presence on American soil. Regardless of how good looking they are, how successful they might be, that kind of neediness borders on insecurity, and the women in some ways are powerless to do anything about it, because their lives in their home countries are far worse than the circumstances they might find themselves in when they get to the States. This kind of relationship sets up all sorts of unbalanced power dynamics, and in my opinion, when the balance of power is stacked in favor of one partner, both partners in the marriage come out on the losing end of things.

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by James
I know that men over the last few decades have gone through a lot of role confusion and upheaval as to how we are supposed to behave in relation to women.

I see your point here, but most of the "role reversal" of which you speak has not only been beneficial to women. In some ways, there are men who believe that the role shift from "emotionally distant sole-breadwinner" has opened them up to develop other interests, to take more of an active role in the raising of children, and to learn to relate to their partners better. How is this a bad thing?

You say you're speaking from anecdotes you've heard from other men - in their conversations, did they say exactly what "roles" had been reversed? What relationship dynamics had changed in their eyes, and why? What roles do they want to inhabit, and what roles do they want their partners to play?

Some skills we have never been noted for (communication ability) but suddenly seems to be demand, whereas other behaviors such as door openings, tradtional date set-ups etc have become different also.

Is it so tough to ask a woman what she likes/expects? I really don't know, because I'm not a man, but before my husband and I got married -- heck, even before we started seeing each other seriously -- we had a conversation, albeit a light-hearted one, about relationship expectations.

In fact the expectations seem to be different enough on both sides that there are some real problems. And the media complicates it. Certainly Cosmo is enough to make anyone neurotic.

I don't buy that, and I'm not sure about any of the other women in the forum, but I'm kind of insulted that you seem to think that most women get their relationship notions from Cosmo. Most women would tell you if they got right down to it that the only things they care about in a relationship are mutual respect, communication and honesty. Those things don't have a gender associated with them, they're part and parcel of treating someone humanely.

Communication isn't hard, James. It really, really isn't. It may take some time to work out the particulars, and learn to negotiate the waters safely, but anything worth having is worth working for. Buying a wife out of a catalog because you don't want to have to work on a relationship is an easy way out.

[justamom]

SoTrue1920-Beautifully put-Most women aren't either/or. Most women in American society have been dancing on the balance of both/and for decades, and don't seem to be any worse for wear because of their dual roles.

A good solid relationship allows both partners the latitude to express and develop different aspects of strengths and weaknesses. It's like a symphony. Sometimes the female has the supporting role others, the male. It's in constant change as we face changing demands.

When we see what people write on these boards, "Why do guys..." or "Why are women...", it shows our desire to understand others. The problem I see is we tend to compartmentalize individuals when maybe the truth lies somewhere a little deeper. Sweeping generalizations work on the surface, but once a relationship is beyond the initial stage, in my own life I've found you can toss a lot of those generalizations out the window. I don't want to be put into a box and have people expect me to be one way or another. There have been times I was the strong one and times I needed the strength of my husband. We allow each other to be what is needed at the moment rather than what some stereotype might dictate.
This leads me to think the men you refer to may have image or control concepts that aren't only out of sync with the times, but the reality of what women (and men) are fully capable of in a relationship. As usual, I could be way off.

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by James
I can't be more specific because I am relating other people's experiences and impresions.

But I thought the topic to be pointed enough that it might spark some discourse on changing gender roles. Maybe the thread should have been just: changing gender roles in relationships.

I know that men over the last few decades have gone through a lot of role confusion and upheaval as to how we are supposed to behave in relation to women.

Some skills we have never been noted for (communication ability) but suddenly seems to be demand, whereas other behaviors such as door openings, tradtional date set-ups etc have become different also.

In fact the expectations seem to be different enough on both sides that there are some real problems. And the media complicates it. Certainly Cosmo is enough to make anyone neurotic.

Gender roles... well it's hard to decribe the change because it is different for everyone. I know women who firmly believe that the man is the head of the family and that is their perogative. I know women who have no place in their lives, or are unwilling to make those places to accomodate a man. And that is their decision too. Gender roles haven't changed for everyone, and yet for others have done a 180.

I guess that you can say the change in roles has been the developement of the ability to choose what it will be rather than have it dictated to you by social mores.

[h2oot]

James says: In conversations with these guys they say they prefer the foreign culture to Americanized women because they seem to be more famlily orientated with better relationship skills. And cited the lack of a lot of these skills as the reason why dating Americanized women is hard.

I think this quote is a riot--like American guys are good at relationship skills???

In my opionion the guys being referred to are doing just the opposite--running from girls who have relationship skills to women who don't...haha.

[SAE1955]

A guys perspective

Well the women have definitely made their point on the subject. Personally, I think it is great that women have achieved what they have, to get out of the house and be an individual. While at the same time I'm seeing a pretty bad trend that might be directly or indirectly related to that. Honestly, I believe that the morals and values that use to define the family in this country are getting worse everyday. Parents are getting divorces, not spending time with their kids, which in result has given the media the opportunity to raise our children. Coming from a divorced family it makes me sick to see how the family gets tossed around these days. While I know that women want to be liberated and show that they can achieve, but at what cost? Talk to any house mom and I guarentee they will tell you that there life has been far from a waste. Being able to watch your kids grow and provide a loving household is not such a bad thing. By saying this I don't imply that the women should do all of the grunt work around the house while pappy comes home and sips on his budweiser. That to me seems like a wasted life for the husband. Im sure a lot of you women are throwing up your arms saying that I would just be intimadated by my wifes success. Thats not the case, thats not me, I want my future wife to have her own mind and opinions. A women can be productive and an asset to society even if she decides to stay home and take care of the house. Productiveness does not always have to revolve around money. Well thats my opinion, maybe im totally off, but an open mind is the best mind.

[valkyrie]

SAE, it sounds like you are blaming women for the decline, as you see it, of the family and morality. I don't think that is fair. Don't the men have a job to do in terms of family structure and morality? Do you think the divorce rate is what it is because women have jobs? I am certainly not faulting you that you personally would prefer to have a wife who stays home with the kids, but it sounds like you're saying more than that. I also don't think that a woman being employed is all about money and "productiveness" -- I think that it is about independence, which is *very* important to some people. As a side note, not all women even want to have children.

BTW, I have to give props to all the women on this board who have responded so eloquently and thoughtfully.

[SAE1955]

After reading that again, that is what it sounded like. I appologize about that, I really did not mean to make that assumption. I believe that BOTH parents are not taking care of their responsibilities the right way these days.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by SAE1955
I believe that BOTH parents are not taking care of their responsibilities the right way these days.

I think you're right about that. Now that I'm getting to the age where people I know are starting to have kids, it's kind of bizarre -- it's like some people just have kids because that's what they're *supposed* to do, but they have no clue as to how much work and sacrifice and time and everything raising children will require.

[h2oot]

In my opinion one of the main reasons for a higher divorce rate is the lack of committment needed to work through conflicts.

The main areas where women who work factors into this are: 1) a women who is more independent financially may not put up with as much as a wife who is financially dependent on her spouse, and 2) a wife who works outside the home needs more help from her spouse who may not give what she needs putting more stress on the relationship.

I believe if both spouses are doing their share and communicating, then the relationship should work. In the past many stuck it out in spite of a bad situation. The main difference being level of committment and opportunity.