Hazing Oversensitivity - Page 2

Peaches-n-Cream · #16 01-10-2002, 12:56 AM

One semester a pledge got very messy, sloppy, passing out drunk at a fraternity party. I was not only embarrassing, but potentially dangerous. This was her choice, not something we forced, coerced, condoned, or encouraged. When I saw how drunk she was, I wanted her to return to the dorm. She was too drunk to go alone so we all left to take her home. The next day our Resident Director, who was a fraternity alumnus, approached me and asked why my sorority was thrown out of that party. I assured him that we weren't thrown out and had left. He wanted to know what had happened because the higher ups in residential life had heard and wanted some answers. They wanted to launch some kind of investigation into the episode because a pledge got loaded and embarrassed herself and all of us. Luckily, there was no investigation and it blew over, but I know that they believed hazing was going on. We made a decision to have a dry pledge period instead. That pretty much eliminated the problem. If she had behaved that way a week earlier, she would have been just another drunk girl, but since she had been inducted as a pledge, it could have been construed as hazing.

Tom Earp · #17 01-10-2002, 06:59 PM

To Physically beat, maim or do mental harm to IS WRONG!

BUT, to enter them into the Brother/sisterhood by Initiation is Hazing during Ritual is also Wrong! We all have certain preciepts by which each of us have our Ritual meanings to be taught! I will never forget the Ritual that I went through. It is a lot different do day to be Pol. Corect from what I have seen lately!

I cannot say right or wrong.

I have Friends who are members of other Fraternity's who have had Problems with hazing and we talk about it as GreekDom Members!

Hell we are all in the same ark as once it goes down, we are all Fu$&*#!

MoxieGrrl · #18 01-10-2002, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl

I think all Moxie is trying to say is, if a couple pledges don't want to do this or that, then it can prevent the sorority from doing something that would be good for the overall membership.

Exactly. Thanks, 33

N2 · #19 01-25-2002, 01:16 PM

Its been a while since I have been on here, but many of you may remember me as a staunch supporter of "hazing with a purpose."

AO Cutie Pi, did I here that right? A fund raiser is now hazing?
KSig RC, I think we have been down this road before. Any chapter that puts its fear of being acused of hazing ahead of its duty to train/mold the new Brothers is, in my view, doing a disservice to itself and the entire Greek community. My "Brotherhood" can only survive if the Brothers are loyal to a fault and have proven to be so. I have been an Alumni for over ten years now (Why does it seem that college freshmen are getting younger? Do they graduate high school in 9th grade now?). When I do go back, I know walking in the door who these brothers are, even though I may have never met some of them. You cannot re-create or duplicate that kind of "Brotherhood" by any other means.
MoxieGrrl, you don't want to have sleepless nights and be humiliated? Sleepless nights have a purpose. Have you ever been up for 2 days at a time simply for someone else's benefit. Would you? Humiliated? There is nothing you could do to me or that I could do in front of my Brothers that would humiliate me. Now, you may ask how did it get that way? I can assure you that it was not because I was not hazed. It is a byproduct of it. Nudity and "sex acts" are a great equalizer to bringing down the walls of humility. (I am not going into details here and my statement does not imply anything homosexual, so don't ask.)
shadokat, you are kidding right? Pledges equal in a house? See above. How can or could you possibly create anything special like that?
DeltAlum, sodomy is illegal in many states. Do you abide by that law also? So is a speed limit. And Stop signs require a "Full Stop"............................................. ..
33girl, If our pledges do not want to do anything, the door is always open. One way, of course.

My point is that there are chapters out there that do not bend over to the politically correct. You must be very careful and deliberate with decisions. The payoff for me is the absolute best Brotherhood on earth. That does not come easy. It does not come without a price and a risk. However, the reward is well worth it.

Be careful out there. Many politically correct do gooders would love to see the remaining old school houses come down.

Semper Fi.

FuzzieAlum · #20 01-25-2002, 02:15 PM

Not requiring your pledges to do "nudity" or "sexual acts" is not "being politically correct"! Give me a break!

The point is, MOST of us (apparently not all) know hazing from not-hazing. On my campus there was one sorority that hazed their new members, and we all knew which one it was. And they had the lowest retention rate for new members of any sorority on campus. Gee, you can see how hazing really benefitted them - and in fact they have recently stopped.

I think the term "pledge" was replaced with "new member" not because there is something intrinsically wrong with the term but because the general public had such a bad image of "pledging." Paddling, forcing people to get drunk, line-ups ... no matter whether it was fair or not, it was a term to put behind us if we wanted to rehabilitate our image. Of course, the image won't go away if we haze our "new members," either. That's why more and more chapters DON'T. The general public is slow to pick up on this, and that's why we have to watch out - some of them are looking for anything, even yellow scrunchies, and if they think it's hazing, they'll use it as an excuse to trash us.

And, no, pledges aren't equal in the sense that they can't vote on many chapter issues, and they don't know the ritual, but they are our equal human beings who we have accepted as brothers or sisters. Personally, I wouldn't join an organization that didn't treat me with dignity. If I had been hazed, I would have turned around and walked out that door, and I wouldn't have wanted to walk back in.

Be warned, if your chapter is still hazing, it doesn't matter how "OK" you think it is, someday a pledge will complain or Nationals will discover it. And then you won't have any chance to haze anymore - and the other chapters on campus probably won't miss having you around and ruining the Greek reputation.

NeonPi · #21 01-25-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Be warned, if your chapter is still hazing, it doesn't matter how "OK" you think it is, someday a pledge will complain or Nationals will discover it. And then you won't have any chance to haze anymore - and the other chapters on campus probably won't miss having you around and ruining the Greek reputation.

FuzzieAlum - you GO girl ... !!

As for N2... well .... Semper Fi this ...!

DeltAlum · #22 01-25-2002, 03:14 PM

Fuzzi Alum,

Thanks. You're last comment is one that I've made over and over.

It just doesn't matter what we think is or isn't OK. It's the law. It's the rules of our Nationals that count here.

If your chapter is going to haze, it must be prepared to suffer the consequences -- which may include losing its' charter.

SigkapAlumWSU · #23 01-25-2002, 05:54 PM

I personally think that there is nothing to discuss. Hazing is illegal. It is against the law, and against every policy I can think of for every GLO. (if not, why not). If you are hazing, you are not only hurting other people and yourself, you are breaking the law. You are a criminal.

Tell me again why you think it's ok to break the law? To be a criminal? Hazers, are you comfertable knowing the stigma attached to common criminals is now attached to you? I hope not.

Love you GLO for the individuality each member brings to it, not the ability to conform to what someone thinks is right. Prove your love by not hurting, not hazing, not breaking the law.

DG4evah · #24 01-26-2002, 01:01 AM

I agree. Hazing is very wrong- I'm glad that I never had an experience with it. When I was initiated in 1988, there was not a hint of it. I don't know that any of the other sororities at my school hazed except one.
My husband was also in a frat-I don't think they did horrible hazing but they did haze- sleepless nights, psychological hazing-I'm not sure. Although he was loyal in school , he doesn't want our children to be Greek. Maybe I will get the 2 girls in a sorority; but unless he sees a real change hazing & alcohol-wise, it will be no for my 2 boys.

Of course, since he's not involved , he can't really see the changes.
I also remember not being able to get a lavaliere because my hubby didn't want to be tied to the flag pole naked & have nasty stuff poured on him. I really wanted one but didn't want to do that to him. I couldn't wear my engagement ring for a few months either, although it was usually just the lavaliere that got you the "flagpole treatment".

teke4life · #25 01-27-2002, 10:52 PM

this is the worst. i hate when greeks discriminate agianst themselves. i can't understand how a man can swear an oath and be "loyal" to his fraternity and then turn around and say its not the kind of life and experiences he wants for his sons? i am proud of the person i have become b/c of what my fraternity has taught me, and i've seen some of the most amazing and well-respected people that i know enter its bond. but i suppose hypocracy is nothing new in this world

FuzzieAlum · #26 01-27-2002, 11:15 PM

I fail to see how wanting something better for your children than you yourself had is hypocrisy.

teke4life · #27 01-28-2002, 02:57 AM

why are assuming that being independent is better than being greek?

it was ok for dad to do, but not junior. i always assumed that was the definition of hypocrisy.

FuzzieAlum · #28 01-28-2002, 01:54 PM

I had a great Greek experience, so I would want my kids to be Greek as well. But this man didn't like his Greek experience - so HE will think being non-Greek is better.

In one breath you defend hazing - the next moment you're shown an example of how unhappy and (as you call it) disloyal hazing makes members, and you don't see the disconnect? Hazing = unhappy Greeks! The most anti-Greek people I know are not those who were GDIs but those who were hazed in college. They swear they will never let their children go Greek, and they follow up to make sure their kids don't.

Some people who were hazed end up fanatically devoted like you (and I don't mean fanatic in a bad way) and some end up miserable. Some people who aren't hazed end up dropping out or whatever, but they are almost never anti-Greek. That's one big argument against hazing right there.

And, of course, the best arguments are that it's illegal, that every IFC and NPC group has a policy against it, that every university has a policy against it, and that it gives the media something to slam us with.

DG4evah · #29 01-28-2002, 07:44 PM

Thanks Fuzzy Alum, you've eloquently said what I feel. I also had a great Greek experience with absolutely no hazing. It's not just my husband. I also would not want my boys to experience hazing of any kind and until some fraternities understand & change that, they are going to lose membership. However, some fraternities have changed & his may be one of them. But the scary thing is that some nationals have changed things, but some groups have gone "underground" and are still hazing.

Why would any idiot parent subject their children to hazing?

I don't think that a parent with a dead or damaged 18 year old is going to be saying," I'm glad my son joined XYZ fraternity". Get real.

And, you know what else? I bet I'm a far more loyal alumna and I wasn't hazed. I think that the statistics would bear that out: Hazing = unhappy greeks who fall away & aren't involved anymore. I can't believe I'm even arguing about this in 2002!!!

33girl · #30 01-28-2002, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by teke4life
this is the worst. i hate when greeks discriminate agianst themselves. i can't understand how a man can swear an oath and be "loyal" to his fraternity and then turn around and say its not the kind of life and experiences he wants for his sons? i am proud of the person i have become b/c of what my fraternity has taught me, and i've seen some of the most amazing and well-respected people that i know enter its bond. but i suppose hypocracy is nothing new in this world

I totally agree. These are the same parents who smoked pot and wallowed naked at Woodstock and then have a fit when they catch their kids having a sip of wine.

If you got anything positive out of your fraternity experience, you owe it to yourself and to your fraternity to change the things that are negative. And you owe it to your children to raise them to have enough self respect not to put up with hazing or any other crap. Keep your hand in and know the deal about which chapters do what (it really isn't that hard) but don't degrade the whole system. THIS is why we have so many great possible members deciding not to join. If that's the kind of chemistry that happens in your brain when you become a parent, I think I'll stay child-free.