LSAT's

[Munchkin03]

There have been a lot of threads on GC, maybe not specifically about the LSATs, but about the state of the legal profession and how maybe it's not such a good idea to go and rack up a ton of debt. It seems that, unless you have an ace in the hole like a family firm to work for or a low-cost school, it's not the golden ticket to wealth it may have seemed when you were growing up.

The Top 14 may be a safer bet (everyone I know from college who went to a Top 14 is employed at a top firm but most of them graduated law school in 2006 so they were not as affected by the recession as younger folks might be), but all but a handful of those schools are in the most expensive areas in the country. If you ended up at one of those places, which isn't likely, you could have $15-20K of living expenses a year (a conservative estimate, really). Also, I believe the ABA prevents you from working more than 20 hours a week during your 1L year.

In other words, even if you get a "full ride," you could still end up 75-80K in debt and that's assuming you don't have any undergrad debt. That's on top of uprooting your life (unless there's a great law school close enough to avoid moving). Do you love the law that much, or is this more about making more than you do as a teacher?

ETA: I wish GeekyPenguin was around more. I think she posted about her LSAT/law school experience a lot and doing a search of her posts might be helpful for you.

[IUHoosiergirl88]

Go pay a visit to Top Law Schools and their forums...you can really learn a lot from those. I'd also recommend the 'bibles' (logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comp)

[Psi U MC Vito]

I have now decided the waiting for the results is the worst part of the LSATs.

[adpiucf]

Actually, the worst part about the LSAT is that it is your gateway to spending six figures on a law school education and not ever being able to pay it off because the market for lawyers is terrible for grads from all tiers of all law schools. I hope you've got a full ride wherever you're going. Or you've just decided to be willfully blind to the facts and statistics out there that law school is the worst possible graduate/professional program out there right now.

Yes, I sound like a Debbie Downer, but I really hope you'll reconsider for your own sake.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

Actually, the worst part about the LSAT is that it is your gateway to spending six figures on a law school education and not ever being able to pay it off because the market for lawyers is terrible for grads from all tiers of all law schools. I hope you've got a full ride wherever you're going. Or you've just decided to be willfully blind to the facts and statistics out there that law school is the worst possible graduate/professional program out there right now.

Yes, I sound like a Debbie Downer, but I really hope you'll reconsider for your own sake.

You're being realistic. It's that bad out there. Only 55% of the Class of 2011 has long term, legal employment. Do anything other than law school.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com...than-expected/

[pbear19]

And don't be fooled into thinking that you won't have debt even if you do have a full tuition scholarship. Bills don't pay themselves, and I'm not a fan of being homeless. So although I didn't have to pay for tuition, I've still had to take loans to make up for the fact that I didn't have a full time job anymore.

I'm graduating a semester late because I had a baby, but only a couple of my friends who graduated in May have jobs at this point. Most people I know who do have jobs are not working as attorneys.

[Psi U MC Vito]

*sigh* You know, I am intelligent enough to weight the risks myself without 8 million people telling me it is a bad idea. Also I am getting really tired of the "in this economy" and "now" things. Yes I would be entering next year God willing, but it takes three years to get your degree, possibly 4 if I get into a joint degree program I'm looking at. I'm not going to base long term decisions on what the current finical clusterfuck is.

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

*sigh* You know, I am intelligent enough to weight the risks myself without 8 million people telling me it is a bad idea. Also I am getting really tired of the "in this economy" and "now" things. Yes I would be entering next year God willing, but it takes three years to get your degree, possibly 4 if I get into a joint degree program I'm looking at. I'm not going to base long term decisions on what the current finical clusterfuck is.

That doesn't sound intelligent at all, but hey, if you have six figures to blow on an education that will never pay off, go for it. Dream big.

[ASTalumna06]

And sorry I'm double-posting, but this was taking it a bit too far, I think.

Originally Posted by adpiucf

That doesn't sound intelligent at all, but hey, if you have six figures to blow on an education that will never pay off, go for it. Dream big.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

That doesn't sound intelligent at all, but hey, if you have six figures to blow on an education that will never pay off, go for it. Dream big.

Wow, you are starting to sound like a Bitter Betty. Did someone pee in your coffee?

If Psi U MC Vito has done his research, which it appears he has, and understands the risks, then why can't he apply to a top law school? If he can get into a Stanford, Columbia, Yale, or Harvard--why not? He's not applying to Cooley with a 145 and a 2.5 from Jarvis Christian College and thinking he's going to roll up at Sullivan Cromwell, after all. Like I said before, the attorneys I know who went to those schools are all employed in their fields. To them, the debt's been worth it.

My skepticism in my earlier post was geared towards the OP, who seems really unprepared for the law school process in general, and might be looking to law solely due to its perceived status as a lucrative career. If you didn't go to a top undergrad and are prepared--GPA and LSAT wise--for a top tier law school, or if you don't have a guaranteed job waiting for you then, yes, your point may be valid.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

That doesn't sound intelligent at all, but hey, if you have six figures to blow on an education that will never pay off, go for it. Dream big.

Vito seems to be a smart guy, capable of assessing his resources, forecasting what he would want to do with a law degree, identifying the opportunities there might be for doing what he wants to do and making informed choices as to the risks and benefits.

The rest of us, on the other hand, are not in a position to assess any of those things. At all. So what doesn't sound very intelligent to me is passing judgment on the intelligence of his decisions.

Believe it or not, it is possible to go to a law school that is not in the T14 or T20 (or even T50), not incur crushing amounts of debt and find a good job after law school. I know enough people who have done it lately to know that it can be done.

Yes, the job market has been much tighter in recent years. But not everyone wants the job with the big firm in the big city (with the big expectation of big billable hours). And the degree to which the market has been tighter varies from region to region of the country.

Could it be challenging? Of course. But it can and does work out for lots of people.

[pbear19]

Since I posted above, I will clarify that I personally am not saying that people should not go to law school. I do agree with trying to be realistic about it, though.

I've enjoyed my time in school, and am not sure that I would change the decision I made before I enrolled if I could go back in time. But I honestly did not expect that I would have as much debt as I do, given that I am on a full tuition scholarship. I have really good grades, great job experience from my previous career, but I didn't get the lucrative summer jobs that I thought would take the edge off. Those summer jobs are, for the most part, no longer reality. For personal reasons I didn't foresee when I applied to law school, I wasn't able to work part time during the year as I planned on, except for one semester. So I have debt that I didn't plan on. And, I honestly thought the economy would be different by the time I graduated. It's not. That being said, there are still jobs. They simply are not as plentiful. I worry most about the person who is in the bottom 50% and doesn't have the social aptitude to network.

Plan to do well on the LSAT. Plan to work your ass off in school to be sure you are ranked well. Plan to scrimp and save on day-to-day stuff. Plan to network and get to know the attorneys in the area you plan to practice. Know the market you are getting into, which may mean going to a lower-ranked school if it is more respected and has better connections in the town you want to live in. Plan to be unemployed until after the bar exam results are published, which means a few months without a paycheck after graduation. If you are realistic, and understand that the jobs that there once were will never be around again, that's all that one can ask.

I would, however, strongly recommend anyone who tests poorly to forego law school. If you cannot handle the stress of an exam, and you don't have a parent's law firm to work in after you graduate, you are going to be in trouble.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

*sigh* You know, I am intelligent enough to weight the risks myself without 8 million people telling me it is a bad idea. Also I am getting really tired of the "in this economy" and "now" things. Yes I would be entering next year God willing, but it takes three years to get your degree, possibly 4 if I get into a joint degree program I'm looking at. I'm not going to base long term decisions on what the current finical clusterfuck is.

The jobs aren't coming back. The industry has undergone a structural shift and it's not going back to where it was when the recession ended. My current firm is outsourcing simple discovery work that was previously done by new associates. (review of electronic documents, medical records, etc.) to India. Corporations have found way to reduce legal costs and will maintain those cost-cutting measures. Insurance companies have instituted strict bill review policies and severely cut the amount of cases that are going to outside counsel or being litigated. Many small and mid-size firms are closing or struggling to survive. Governments are cutting hiring because of low tax revenues.

Legal hiring will pick up somewhat, but it will not go back to pre-recession levels. The schools are currently producing 2 graduates for every full time job. When this is all over there will still be around 1.5 new graduates for every new job.

That doesn't even begin to address the lifestyle issues with the practice of law. Burnout is high.

If you want to go to law school in that environment, I wish you the best. It is not a choice that I would make. I really enjoyed law school and I enjoyed practice when I started. I don't enjoy it now.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Isn't the whole dream big thing what we tell a whole bunch of high schools students who could never afford college in the first place so that they will do what they need to make sure they can go? And what exactly is "paying off"? I'm not one of those people who want to go to law school because I think I'm going to be racking in a six figure salary the second I pass the bar. I want to do it because it is good work that needs to be done, and I'll do what I have to to make sure I can do that work. The whole six figures for an education that will never pay off applies to a undergrad degree as well, but we still encourage people to go to college. Yes it is a big ass risk, and yes, I am scared shitless about figuring out how I iwll pay for it. But I'm not going to let something I have no power over stop me from doing something if I feel it is the right thing for me to do.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

*sigh* You know, I am intelligent enough to weight the risks myself without 8 million people telling me it is a bad idea. Also I am getting really tired of the "in this economy" and "now" things. Yes I would be entering next year God willing, but it takes three years to get your degree, possibly 4 if I get into a joint degree program I'm looking at. I'm not going to base long term decisions on what the current finical clusterfuck is.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Isn't the whole dream big thing what we tell a whole bunch of high schools students who could never afford college in the first place so that they will do what they need to make sure they can go? And what exactly is "paying off"? I'm not one of those people who want to go to law school because I think I'm going to be racking in a six figure salary the second I pass the bar. I want to do it because it is good work that needs to be done, and I'll do what I have to to make sure I can do that work. The whole six figures for an education that will never pay off applies to a undergrad degree as well, but we still encourage people to go to college. Yes it is a big ass risk, and yes, I am scared shitless about figuring out how I iwll pay for it. But I'm not going to let something I have no power over stop me from doing something if I feel it is the right thing for me to do.

If this is something you want to do, then go for it! People discouraging you to this extent is quite ridiculous, in my opinion. It's one thing to warn you and to tell you to truly think about it before you go to school... it's another to say that you virtually have no chance of making it, and imply that you're a sucker for even applying.

The thing about a law degree is that you don't have to practice law. Crazy concept, I know. But there are other professions that don't necessarily require a law degree, but having one can definitely help. I see that every day working in the insurance industry.

So again, if you've weighed the pros and cons, and you understand the risks, and you still know that this is REALLY what you want to do, then do it.