Jewish wedding traditions adopted by non-Jewish couple

[NinjaPoodle]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I'm not opposed to stealing traditions if you feel they can have meaning for you. Doing it because they look pretty and will impress your friends, though...well, that's a bit tackier.

So, like, "We want a chuppah because we love the symbolism of our friends and family supporting us in our marriage" is cool. "We want a chuppah because it's a cool decoration" is not cool.

Originally Posted by Mevara

As the article states

I think as long as you do it out of respect and good taste it is okay.

Ditto

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ellebud

But it is wonderful to understand and respect the traditions of others.

Absolutely.

[Low C Sharp]

Jewish families having a Christmas tree for the decor.....not so much.

A Jew or atheist having a Christmas tree is different from appropriating a religious ritual. There is no Christian tradition that mandates a Christmas tree. Heck, if there's a Christian tradition that even recommends a Christmas tree, I'd like to learn about it. Decorating one's house with fir boughs, candles, etc., as well as giving gifts and having a feast, was a pagan practice that long predates Christianity. A Christmas tree's historical, and to a large extent its modern, purpose is to be pretty and bring some light and warmth into the house during the winter solstice. It's different even from displaying a creche, with its explicit Christian meaning, and miles away from, say, holding a "mass" in your living room because you like the text and you think the wafers are cool (which would be disrespectful and offensive).

We generally don't find it weird for non-pagans to celebrate Halloween, or for non-Puritans to honor the first Thanksgiving, because those practices carry so much secular, cultural meaning. It doesn't bother me if people want to move huppas or smashing a glass into that space. I have a bigger problem with churches deciding to host "Seders" without Jewish leadership. That is appropriation, and making a parody of something others hold sacred. I'm not a fan of the trend of using Jews and their rituals as mascots to validate a false "Judeo-Christian" presentation. Christians who genuinely respect Jews and our traditions don't keep a Jewish Stepin Fetchit around to make a political point about how much they love Jews.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

I have a bigger problem with churches deciding to host "Seders" without Jewish leadership. That is appropriation, and making a parody of something others hold sacred. I'm not a fan of the trend of using Jews and their rituals as mascots to validate a false "Judeo-Christian" presentation. Christians who genuinely respect Jews and our traditions don't keep a Jewish Stepin Fetchit around to make a political point about how much they love Jews.

I don't know about this. I don't personally see an issue with Christians celebrating Passover, though I would expect some additions to the traditional sedar to reflect our beliefs.

[BraveMaroon]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

A Jew or atheist having a Christmas tree is different from appropriating a religious ritual. There is no Christian tradition that mandates a Christmas tree. Heck, if there's a Christian tradition that even recommends a Christmas tree, I'd like to learn about it. Decorating one's house with fir boughs, candles, etc., as well as giving gifts and having a feast, was a pagan practice that long predates Christianity. A Christmas tree's historical, and to a large extent its modern, purpose is to be pretty and bring some light and warmth into the house during the winter solstice. It's different even from displaying a creche, with its explicit Christian meaning, and miles away from, say, holding a "mass" in your living room because you like the text and you think the wafers are cool (which would be disrespectful and offensive).

This. A million times this.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I don't know about this. I don't personally see an issue with Christians celebrating Passover, though I would expect some additions to the traditional sedar to reflect our beliefs.

Now Vito, you know I've got to give you a bit of a hard time about this. Christians do celebrate Passover in their own way -- we call it the Eucharist.

Alleluia! Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
Therefore let us keep the feast. Alleluia!

Or we call it Easter, if you're talking about the day instead of a rite. I think that in most European languages other than English and German, the name of that day is derived from Pesakh (Passover).

What I took Low C Sharp to be talking about is the Christianized Seders I see sometimes, where everything in the meal is re-interpreted/misinterpreted/understood (depending on perspective) to give Christian meaning to all aspects of the seder. These kinds of things make me very uncomfortable. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is the fear that it will offend others. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is that it indicates to me that we don't understand our own tradition well enough to see that the Eucharist is our Passover meal.

On the other hand, I do think participation in a seder can be a valuable, educational and very meaningful experience for Christians; we all too often forget our Jewish roots (and forget that Jesus was Jewish) and neglect, as result, to consider the implications of that for us. Our congregation has had seders for this purpose a few times in the past, and we've asked people from a near-by synagogue to join us for it, help us plan it and lead us in it.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

However Christians hold the Tanakh to be scripture, so some, but not all by any stretch, might celebrate Passover because of the command in Exodus.

There are indeed some (small, non-mainstream) Christian groups that consider the command in Exodus binding on Christians.

[Low C Sharp]

The problem isn't celebrating it. The issue is holding their own "Seders" without Jewish leadership (or even input). Would you see an issue with a bunch of Jews holding a "Mass" without bringing in any Catholics? If you want to experience Passover, countless Jewish organizations and families would welcome you as a guest.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

The problem isn't celebrating it. The issue is holding their own "Seders" without Jewish leadership (or even input). Would you see an issue with a bunch of Jews holding a "Mass" without bringing in any Catholics? If you want to experience Passover, countless Jewish organizations and families would welcome you as a guest.

I would have an issue with non-Christians holding the Eucharist, because it wouldn't have meaning to them. However Christians hold the Tanakh to be scripture, so some, but not all by any stretch, might celebrate Passover because of the command in Exodus. Since they won't have Rabbinical tradition to draw on, it would probably take a different form. Especially since we associate the Last Supper with Passover.

[ellebud]

A seder is the retelling the story of the book of Exodus. Yes, there are distinctly Jewish elements (the Four Sons). But there is a worldwide and cross cultural implications: It is the story of freedom, the yearning for freedom and historical in that it discribes the growth of a group from paganism (worshipping the golden calf) to the understanding of one God.

It is considered a mitzvah (good deed) to invite anyone of any faith and background to a seder.

We went to a Catholic/Jewish wedding recently. It was held in a church with the Archbishop and a Rabbi officiating. (Yes, this had to be a very liberal church.) There was incense which I understand is rarely done. The Archbishop invited everyone up to take communion. A bit of an awkward moment. But it was very inclusive and that was nice.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Now Vito, you know I've got to give you a bit of a hard time about this. Christians do celebrate Passover in their own way -- we call it the Eucharist.

Alleluia! Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
Therefore let us keep the feast. Alleluia!

Or we call it Easter, if you're talking about the day instead of a rite. I think that in most European languages other than English and German, the name of that day is derived from Pesakh (Passover).

What I took Low C Sharp to be talking about is the Christianized Seders I see sometimes, where everything in the meal is re-interpreted/misinterpreted/understood (depending on perspective) to give Christian meaning to all aspects of the seder. These kinds of things make me very uncomfortable. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is the fear that it will offend others. Part of the reason it makes me uncomfortable is that it indicates to me that we don't understand our own tradition well enough to see that the Eucharist is our Passover meal.

On the other hand, I do think participation in a seder can be a valuable, educational and very meaningful experience for Christians; we all too often forget our Jewish roots (and forget that Jesus was Jewish) and neglect, as result, to consider the implications of that for us. Our congregation has had seders for this purpose a few times in the past, and we've asked people from a near-by synagogue to join us for it, help us plan it and lead us in it.

There are indeed some (small, non-mainstream) Christian groups that consider the command in Exodus binding on Christians.

Good point. Especially true since the Great Thanksgiving among other things usually mentions the Exodus.

Originally Posted by ellebud

We went to a Catholic/Jewish wedding recently. It was held in a church with the Archbishop and a Rabbi officiating. (Yes, this had to be a very liberal church.) There was incense which I understand is rarely done. The Archbishop invited everyone up to take communion. A bit of an awkward moment. But it was very inclusive and that was nice.

Actually incense is very traditional. It's why some low church Anglicans refer to both our own High Church services and Roman services disparaging as "smells and bells." The fact that the Archbishop not only celebrated with a Rabbi, but invited all to communion? It probably would have caused a few coronaries in Rome if they found out.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Good point. Especially true since the Great Thanksgiving among other things usually mentions the Exodus.


Actually incense is very traditional. It's why some low church Anglicans refer to both our own High Church services and Roman services disparaging as "smells and bells." The fact that the Archbishop not only celebrated with a Rabbi, but invited all to communion? It probably would have caused a few coronaries in Rome if they found out.

Regarding the inviting all to communion bit: how is the officiant to know who is allowed communion and who is not? It's not like people have big neon signs over their heads that announce their faith. When I've been at weddings where communion has been served, they invite all, but people who are another faith or nonbelievers generally abstain.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

Regarding the inviting all to communion bit: how is the officiant to know who is allowed communion and who is not? It's not like people have big neon signs over their heads that announce their faith. When I've been at weddings where communion has been served, they invite all, but people who are another faith or nonbelievers generally abstain.

It's one thing to commune all who ask for the Sacrament, it's quite another to invite all, especially when the official position is against it.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

It's one thing to commune all who ask for the Sacrament, it's quite another to invite all, especially when the official position is against it.

And again, I ask how is each individual's status to be known? How else do you offer communion? Generally speaking, when communion happens, it's kind of like, "we're doing this now." Then the congregants either line up and kneel, or it's passed around to them.

[SWTXBelle]

COMMUNION is meant to be just that - amongst other things, a sign of those who, in the case of the RC church, are in communion with the Church. If you are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, be it because you belong to another sect or know yourself to be in a state of grave sin, don't believe in the real presence or aren't a Christian, you don't take communion. To do so would be to do what this thread started out being about - to take something which is a religious tradition (in the case of communion, a sacrament) infused with a very specific meaning and purpose and to adopt it for another reason. It's up to you to decide whether or not you fit the criteria listed in the missal. Unless you make a big show of not being in communion, no one is going to question you during it.

[ellebud]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

COMMUNION is meant to be just that - amongst other things, a sign of those who, in the case of the RC church, are in communion with the Church. If you are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, be it because you belong to another sect or know yourself to be in a state of grave sin, don't believe in the real presence or aren't a Christian, you don't take communion. To do so would be to do what this thread started out being about - to take something which is a religious tradition (in the case of communion, a sacrament) infused with a very specific meaning and purpose and to adopt it for another reason. It's up to you to decide whether or not you fit the criteria listed in the missal. Unless you make a big show of not being in communion, no one is going to question you during it.

At the wedding that we attended where everyone was offered communion (the Archbishop specifically invited all: Christian or Jew, Catholic, Muslim or atheist) all the Jews just looked around the Church in bewilderment. None of us went up. My husband, educated as an Episcopalian, didn't go.

Incidentally if my son marries his girlfriend this will be a very new experience: She is far more religiously Jewish than my family ever has been since we immigrated 150 years ago. She said that she will walk around the chuppah seven times (a mystical number meant to establish a new home safe from outsiders....be they demons or in laws) and have the "full" service. It will be lovely.

........and yes, I'm aware that I'm an in law.