Tom Delay: People Are Unemployed Because They Want To Be

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I hate the way that the welfare system is missed used in this country. I was talking to somebody a few years who still remembered when it first came out. Back then it was called Relief. It's purpose was to give you something to live off of until you could get on your feet. That is what it is designed for, not for people to life off of it indefinitely.

THIS

[libramunoz]

Yes, when the system was designed in 1935, it was designed as a system of relief for those that needed help. It was designed along with the SSA, the CCC, and Medicare/Medicaid. It was designed because of the fact that there was a major depression within the country, and FDR was trying his hardest to get people to eat within the country while being able to maintain some sense of dignity while being able to stimulate the economy.

The truth of the matter is that it almost didn't work and the country almost remained within a depressive state UNTIL America entered into WWII as of Dec. 1941. That's just a matter of fact.

However, what people DON'T look at is the fact that MOST people that get on AFDC, Welfare, Assistance, Aid, TANF, whatever a person wants to call it, they get OFF of it within 3 to 5 months. It's just a stated fact and this is something that people tend to overlook in quoting or stating that people that get on welfare, blah, blah, blah.

I'm sorry, I have read these comments on here and am virtually disgusted in what I am reading. Yes, it's just my opinion, and no I shouldn't take things personally, however, being currently unemployed, it becomes a slightly personal matter.

People tend to act like when you're unemployed, you want to be there. They act like you don't want to get up and go to work. They act like you cannot envy those who have a job and wish to God it was you going with them. But hell, the truth of the matter is, sometimes, it just ain't so.

I can say that I don't like being unemployed. I hate it above many things in my life. I can't say that I haven't tried to get a job. But I cannot make people hire me. I cannot go into an office and point a gun and say, "would you hire me, pppppllllleeeeeaaaassssee?" It just ain't gonna work.

It's not easy being in this poisition. Trust me. You get the "look" when people ask you what are you doing and you say, "well, I'm currently unemployed..." and you can say that I'm doing volunteer work with the Girl Scouts or for the church, and people inadvertenly (?) give you the "look." As if to say, "you lazy, trifling, blah, blah, blah."

But what people fail to look at is that you too are struggling with paying your bills, trying to find a job, trying to juggle temp jobs, hell, just trying to find a temp job. You too are wondering how are you going to have enough food, water, lights in order to survive until the next day. You too are wondering how are you gonna make it. You still struggle to survive. It's not a position that you WANT to be in, hell, sometimes, you just find yourself in it.

I can personally testify that having been out of a job for this long, I do long to have that 8 to 5, 12 to 6, hell even 7 to 11, I wouldn't care, it's a job and it helps to pay my bills. Maybe Delay needs to stop and see how long he would be able to last if he had to be unemployed and if he had no health insurance and if all he could be able to rely on is unemployment. Maybe he needs to try this for a few days and see if it's something that he could then understand and back off in saying that people who are unemployed just don't want to work.

I'm sorry it isn't about others coming into this country and working, it's not about being able to just jump up and start a business, it's not about it being a person that lives in the country or about a person that lives in a ghetto or barrio. It is about being able to survive when you are wondering if your lights are going to be on the next day, being able to survive when you don't know how to pay the water bill, being able to survive when you're hungry and being able to have the faith to be able to stay sane during your time of trial and tribulation.

Sorry about the rant, but this just seemed to strike a wrong nerve within me. O.k., back to slightly normal and jumping off the soapbox.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We can't just keep treating the federal government as if they have unlimited funds. I agree that eventually the benefits have to dry up. The dole is a temporary measure, not a way of life. There are jobs out there and if that fails, there's entrepreneurship.

My friend tried to apply for a job at Target. They told her she was over-qualified. There's jobs out there, but for those who didn't go to college. If you have an education, the jobs that are actually hiring don't want you because they know you'll leave as soon as something better comes around.

And there isn't entrepreneurship. Small businesses are failing because people don't have money to spend anymore and taxes are going up. Mine and Dee's area is turning into a ghost-town. Cities that were once thriving are filled with empty buildings left over from businesses that were once thriving.

And please don't say "Move out" like you've done before. If everyone who couldn't find a job moved out of state, who is going to support the businesses that are left?

[ZTAngel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You can start mowing lawns for <$1,000. People manage to come here from Mexico or elsewhere with zero startup capital and run those sorts of businesses. During the immigration debates we were all talking about those jobs Americans simply won't do.

Maybe some folks need to adjust their expectations/entitlement mentalities?

So if you lost your job as an attorney you'd be perfectly ok mowing lawns or being a dishwasher? Ok. You'll probably say yes just to win the argument but for some reason I doubt that's true. For anyone in that position who is educated and who has worked their way to the top of a company, being a landscaper or a dishwasher is probably a bigger slap in the face than getting laid off was.

I've been laid off. It sucked. I worked my ass off to find a new job because, as libramunoz said, I couldn't stand the looks I'd get from people when I told them that I was currently unemployed. Most of all, I couldn't stand how I felt about myself. Some psychologists equate a job loss to be just as stressful as the death of a close relative. I believe it. So until you find yourself in that position, you will NEVER understand what it's like. And until you find yourself in that situation, passing judgment (such as they're lazy or feel entitled) on those who are there is extremely short-sighted and insulting.

[AGDee]

Not to mention, it isn't as though, on unemployment, you're receiving the kind of salary you would be making as an MBA or with a Masters in Health Administration. My ex got 50% of his pay as severance for 5 months and he just started unemployment this month. He's getting even less than that now. He worked continuously as an accountant and then a financial analyst for 23 years. He's paid his share of taxes over those years. He's anything but lazy but he's trying desperately to keep the house he's been paying for since 1992. My neighbor who lost her house had been paying on it for 20 years! It was auctioned for less than 1/3 of what she still owed on it. All the money she put into it, all the repairs, all the taxes she paid on it and all she has now is a bad credit rating to show for it. She would have gladly paid everything she owed, if they'd reduced her payment and extended the mortgage out 10 more years.

All of the people I know personally who are laid off are professionals with degrees. They aren't leaving the state because they have houses here, they have spouses who have jobs here and don't want to risk both of them not having jobs. Or, they are court ordered to stay within 100 miles of their ex-spouse because of custody arrangements. They are struggling and are desperate to be working. And obviously retailers are not going to hire someone with an MBA because they know they will be gone the minute they find a job in their career specialty.

People who think like Delay are simply out of touch with reality.

As for welfare, states make the majority of those decisions. There is no such thing as welfare in Michigan. There is Aid for Dependent Children, for people with children and it amounts to peanuts. Those who receive it have to attend job workshops, trainings, and prove that they've filled out a certain number of job applications a week. There is section 8 housing, most of which is barely above code and in really awful neighborhoods. There are food stamps (the bridge card, here), which amounts to something like $110 a month and can only be used for food, not toilet paper, not shampoo or soap, etc. There are food banks which are completely and totally overwhelmed. There are limits on how long you can be on ADC too. And yes, there are charitable organizations like Christ.net who have roaming homeless shelters in churches, but they too, are overwhelmed.

There are people who scam the system. There always will be. The majority, however, are desperately trying to get back on their feet and find jobs.

My ex has an interview a week from Monday. He's been in talks with this company since early January. He's among their top 3 candidates so we're praying hard and keeping our fingers crossed. I can't carry all of us much longer without going into massive debt myself. This situation sucks for everybody involved and to imply any differently is just crazy.

[libramunoz]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We can't just keep treating the federal government as if they have unlimited funds. I agree that eventually the benefits have to dry up. The dole is a temporary measure, not a way of life. There are jobs out there and if that fails, there's entrepreneurship.

I don't mean to be a pain, but as I thought more and more, I got a bit more frustrated with your answer.

The reason why I got frustrated is because you say that there are jobs out there and if that fails, there's entrepreneurship. My question to you is have you ever been unemployed? Have you ever had to have that feeling of not being able to go to work because you don't have a job to go too? Have you wondered how you are going to pay your light, gas, water, propane, and manage to get food on unemployment? Have you ever had to wonder where you are going to get the basic necessities of life-ie tp, toothpaste, soap, shampoo, etc?

Don't get me wrong, I am grateful to God Almighty that I recieve my unemployment, but if you HAVEN'T been there, don't assume that there are just jobs floating around out there!

I have two damn degrees, TWO and have been unemployed for almost 2 years! Sorry, but I hate to tell you, it ain't easy being green and unemployed! It just ain't easy. If you THINK that it is, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give it a try and tell me how YOU LIKE IT! I bet, a dime to a dollar, that you wouldn't like it!

I am so sorry that you may NOT be able to understand this, but being unemployed is NO FUN! I am so sorry, it's just not. It's painful, fearful, and tough as hell.

Moving isn't an option, starting a business, with what is my question to you. It takes capital to make capital. I owe from the rooter to the tooter and I just have to keep plugging away day by day.

If you think being unemployed that you don't have restrictions placed on you, think again. In Texas, when you apply for unemployment, yes, you do have to attend TWC workshops on how to get a job, yes, you do have to stop and show weekly how many jobs you have/are applying for, yes, you do have to even OMG, PAY TAXES on your unemployment. It isn't just all fun and games. You can't just sit back, relax, and chill. You do have to work your ass off along with your arms, legs, and back trying to find another job.

I'm so sorry, I have applied at Wal-Mart, Big Lots, and Freds, the State School, and even TDHS and haven't been selected because I was either over qualified or maybe they just didn't like me, hell I don't know. On a weekly basis, I apply for anywhere from 5 to up to 16 jobs a week.

So don't get up on your high horse and just ASSUME that being unemployed is easy greasy and that it's just something that someone wants to be. Don't ASSUME that a person is just happy living on the "dole" of the Federal Governments teet! I can tell you that trying to live on the governments dole in Texas wouldn't be worth getting up off the ground to suck on the teet itself. Alone, trying to get food stamps out here, because of my unemployment I don't qualify. I have had it before, and for a single person it's only $155 per month, and you have to get requalified every 3 months. So don't ASSUME that being unemployed means that a person isn't TRYING to find a damn job! Stop and ask an unemployed person sometime, you just might learn something.

And as far as jobs being out there, when you find one that wants to hire me, let ME know.

[MysticCat]

Co-sign everything AGDee and Libramunoz said.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I hate the way that the welfare system is missed used in this country. I was talking to somebody a few years who still remembered when it first came out. Back then it was called Relief. It's purpose was to give you something to live off of until you could get on your feet. That is what it is designed for, not for people to life off of it indefinitely.

I hate it when the system is misused as well. I also hate it when people simply assume that the majority of those in the system are misusing it or are out of work simply because they're lazy/feel entitled/looking for that free check/have too high expectations/whatever.

But what I hate the most, I think, is the near-arrogantly simplistic and totally lacking in critical thinking approach of some educated and intelligent people who are all too willing to simply say unemployment is the fault of the unemployed period. Sometimes things are that simple, but all to often, they're much more complicated than that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Co-sign everything AGDee and Libramunoz said.I hate it when the system is misused as well. I also hate it when people simply assume that the majority of those in the system are misusing it or are out of work simply because they're lazy/feel entitled/looking for that free check/have too high expectations/whatever.

But what I hate the most, I think, is the near-arrogantly simplistic and totally lacking in critical thinking approach of some educated and intelligent people who are all too willing to simply say unemployment is the fault of the unemployed period. Sometimes things are that simple, but all to often, they're much more complicated than that.

I can hardly come to any other conclusion though. If someone spends however many months on the dole as are currently allowed and has yet to find a job, when does the blame shift from the economy or somesuch other nebulous entity to the individual? Does it ever shift?

And let's just assume all of these "It's not their fault" premises ad arguendo. Why are their problems my problems? Why must I and other taxpayers continue to watch the money I spend in taxes go to solve their problems? Pay their bills? Bail them out? I don't think anyone could reasonably believe that the current federal fiscal irresponsibility can continue indefinitely. But I get to watch as my money is spent on this crap and then I, who will still be gainfully employed for the rest of my life, will get to bear a lot more than my fair share in paying it back. But I guess I shouldn't have a problem with that?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

But I get to watch as my money is spent on this crap and then I, who will still be gainfully employed for the rest of my life, will get to bear a lot more than my fair share in paying it back. But I guess I shouldn't have a problem with that?

You don't know what tomorrow will bring. Because of your situation you may believe that you will have your job 'forever' but you never know what may happen that *POW* you could be unable to work.

Kevin not everyone's life is like yours, people on GC have told you that time and time again and I don't think you get that. It's not everyone has the ability to find a job 'just like that' and it's not for a lack of trying. Like others on here, I have friends with multiple degrees who can't find work regardless of the income spectrum they are looking.

I also agree with AGDee, libramunoz and MC have said. It's not as 'easy' or 'simplistic' as you say...hell if you want to be a help, give libramunoz a hand, make yourself useful, start a job bank or something so that way you can at least feel like you've helped someone who needs it. It kills me also the people that complain that unemployed people are lazy but aren't doing anything to help them.


Kevin it really amazes me how you come out looking when you enter into these kinds of debates...and you keep coming back.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I can hardly come to any other conclusion though. If someone spends however many months on the dole as are currently allowed and has yet to find a job, when does the blame shift from the economy or somesuch other nebulous entity to the individual? Does it ever shift?

And let's just assume all of these "It's not their fault" premises ad arguendo. Why are their problems my problems? Why must I and other taxpayers continue to watch the money I spend in taxes go to solve their problems? Pay their bills? Bail them out? I don't think anyone could reasonably believe that the current federal fiscal irresponsibility can continue indefinitely. But I get to watch as my money is spent on this crap and then I, who will still be gainfully employed for the rest of my life, will get to bear a lot more than my fair share in paying it back. But I guess I shouldn't have a problem with that?

I know many well-educated, experienced folks (some of who are family members) who are currently unemployed, even though they have been quite conscientiously looking for jobs for many months now. These are people who have been working since they were in their teens at various jobs, all of which have taken some sort of unemployment taxes out of their checks every pay period. These are people that have paid, for years, into the system for years for just this purpose. Just on the off chance that they might one day need a bit of assistance to get through a rough patch. It is not just your money they are taking, it is their own. Even still, believe me, these folks are willing to take almost anything, because unemployment is nothing compared to the salaries that they are used to makings and even compared to salaries that they could be making at any reasonably-salaried position (read $8/40 hrs and up). How many other similar stories could those commenting in this thread tell.

The next question is where should your money go? Are corporate bailouts ok? Is it okay for your money to go to schools that your children will never attend, parks that you will never visit, roads that you will never drive down? Should tax revenue, specifically the miniscule portion that you actually pay into that pot, really only be used for projects that you will personally benefit from?

Furthermore, have you considered what it would mean to the cohesion of our society if social welfare programs ceased to exist? What it would mean if we all truly adopted this "every person for herself" mentality? Really have you ever thought about it? Do you imagine that if we were to leave our floundering neighbors completely to their own devices that some how, all of the sudden, jobs would appear and everyone would be gainfully and adequately employed? Do you really think that?

Did you ever consider what would happen if masses of people suddenly found themselves perpetually outside of the system, with no way and no hope of getting a foothold for advancement (and that is all that many of these social welfare programs are, are, toeholds. No one is getting rich on welfare or unemployment, and most folks would give it up in a second if they could find a job that paid a living wage that allowed them to truly support themselves and their families)? Why, in that scenario, would they have any cause to invest in any element of our society? Is that a better alternative?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I can hardly come to any other conclusion though.

Of course you can. You can come to the conclusion that one size doesn't fit all -- that one answer doesn't cover all situations, that every case is different. I know you learned how to do that in law school.

Some people are indeed resting on the dole. Others are doing everything within their power to find work -- any work -- and to make ends meet, but because of the job market in general, inability for one reason or another to move, health issues (their own or family members) or a host of other reasons, it's not happening for them.

The simplistic thinking comes in by assuming that what applies to some people applies to all people.

Why are their problems my problems? Why must I and other taxpayers continue to watch the money I spend in taxes go to solve their problems? Pay their bills? Bail them out? I don't think anyone could reasonably believe that the current federal fiscal irresponsibility can continue indefinitely.

Well, I could go all philosophical on you and say because no man is an island entire of himself and because we are a society, not a mere collection of individuals, but I really don't think that advances dialogue.

These questions are a somewhat different discussion. I'll readily grant there can be a wide variety of political solutions to the problems of how to deal with the unemployed from total socialism to total reliance on personal and private charity and everything in between. These are hard questions and there are no easy answers. It's easy enough to say "they should find work," but what about children? It's easy enough to say "why should I pay their bills" but what about my (and your) health insurance premiums and other bills that are higher to recoup what others can't pay?

The blithe "well, they just don't really want to work so why should we help them" is a cop-out, a rationalization. It avoids asking the hard political questions about what society's role is or should be and what the implications to society as a whole of doing this, doing that or doing nothing at all actually are.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't mean this as a "Rah, Rah, Welfare." My point is simply that it's a complex and complicated issue (or set of issues) that requires real thinking, not platitudes.

But I get to watch as my money is spent on this crap and then I, who will still be gainfully employed for the rest of my life . . . .

I hope you're right about being gainfully employed the rest of your life. But I wouldn't take that for granted, if I were you. I know too many former lawyers who prove the assumption wrong.

[APhiAnna]

Kevin, I really don't think I understand your point. It is very clear right now that in many areas of the United States, corporate jobs aren't hiring unless they are bringing in key executives. For entry level or just above entry level jobs, it is quite the opposite, they are slashing out whole divisions. Say you graduated recently with an MBA, or a degree in public relations, etc. You don't qualify for those top positions obviously, and nobody is hiring entry level positions. Even when they are, the "talent pool" has risen from maybe 30 applicants to 150 because of the bad economy, making it extremely difficult.

The places that are hiring (ie Target, McDonalds, Fry's) aren't going to take you because they know you are overqualified. The second you get a job you are going to ditch them and leave them with an empty slot. People aren't making this up Kevin...if you walk through the door of a Hooter's with a degree from a strong school, let alone TWO degrees, they are in no way going to hire you.

And your entrepreneurial idea? First off, you need CAPITAL to start a business. Second, everybody knows that to start a business is a risky move that requires long term patience to receive payoffs...NOT an optimal solution if your house is in foreclosure, your bills just turned off, etc. Third, your ideas of lawn mowing and all that...that is NOT going to adequately provide for a family of four living in Orange County or Atlanta, for example. Anyways, it is those little services that people are letting go of in the first place during this economy...my family is lucky enough to be financially stable at this point, and even they have gotten rid of the maids who cleaned our house once a week and the gardener that we have said since I was a child. Lastly, not everybody can manage starting a business...just like any job, you need specific skill sets to be an entrepreneur. For many intelligent, well-qualified people, it still isn't a viable option for their skills.

I literally think you come into these arguments trying to be difficult just to show off that you are a lawyer.

[DaemonSeid]

Let me offer this into evidence:

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/loca...ousands-030810

[Ggirl617]

I'm not going to pretend that I know everything about this issue, but I don't understand why people who aren't mentally or physically disabled can't be completely self sufficient and take total responsibility for themselves

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Ggirl617

I'm not going to pretend that I know everything about this issue, but I don't understand why people who aren't mentally or physically disabled can't be completely self sufficient and take total responsibility for themselves

Have you noticed the little recession we're in?