Punishment

[James]

This is not an easy issue. The reason why people haze is that hazing works. I said that before but didn't elaborate.

People sense the need to have tighter cohesive groups. They sense the need to make sure that NM have a strong appreciation for the chapter and are willing to commit a lot of time to it.

To do this they believe they need to create an intense, time consuming enviornment that forces strong identity within the pledge group and then have that extrapolate out to the rest of the chapter.

Now things start going wrong. In the male Greek World National Organizations have been reluctant, unwilling, or unable to develop sophisticated NM programs that use really good leadership/group technology to create positive fun ways that encourage intense bonding. And these ways do exist.

There is a great book called "Built to Last" that talks about the habits of visionary companies. And while its not a manual of how to do this stuff, it certainly covers the basic theory.

IBM was described as a company that had such a strong corporate identity that leaving it was like emigrating to another country. If you work for Proctor and Gamble you can go to any branch in the world and feel right at home, the PG way is that strong.

And these companies do not haze. But they do have memorization, songs, social events etc.

In the Greek world you often have younger members with very little experience in leadership, team building, or the other skills that make it easy to create intense positive environments. And yet they have to develop these programs.

I mean, would you hire someone with no experience or knowledge to do this for your company? Of course not. But you are often going to let this person decide the overall experience of your 10-100 person new member class. This doesn't apply by any means to every undergrad, I was kind of a wierd information mutant even as a freshman. But I would have known when I was over my head and asked for expert help.

So these people mean well and do the best they can, but where are they looking for knowledge? Movies they have watched, teams they may have been on (and they may not have been the best teams either) random ideas, some examples from other chapters, and any chapter tradition that might still be around.

This is certainly not an example of sophistication. Usually a chapter gets lucky if the person running the program is really organized and regimented, because then there is less chance that some really unauthorized/unsupervised activites somehow slip in, and I think those are the ones that lead to a lot of the nonesense.

I applaud the sorority Nationals' that have adopted some of the more leadership based programs. Some of the groups have actually gotten Expert input on it. However, unless they spend a lot of resources teaching others how to implement the program, its only so much paper.

You are unlikely to terminate a behavior by just trying to stop it, all you people that quit minor addictions should be able to relate, you need to replace it with other behaviors.

So until we start developing better programs, that have similar effects in bonding, and spend the time teaching them, hazing is going to keep on.

[LexiKD]

I cannot speak about Fraternity NM programs becasue my experience is with NPC groups, but it upsets me to see chapters hazing in any form.

I really think showing NMs it is OK to break the law or university policy for the sake of the Greater Good of your chapter isn't teaching anything at all.

Hazing, in general, is a crazy. Why do you feel the need to make the NMs "earn" their letters by showing them the wrong examples?

How are they going to learn to be productive peolpe if they are taught they have to be belittled by poelpe who call themselves family in order to gain entrance into that family? I think it starts a bad cycle and opens the door for too many future problems.

My sorority motto is to Strive for that which is Honorable, Beautiful, and Highest; Hazing does not fit it to that at all.

We have a GREAT NM program and I felt I earned my letters by representing my organization to the best of my ability; by following the women before me who left such a great legacy.

I hope with all the issues around Greek Life that all our organizations will move with the times and update and begin strong NM programs. It is the same with all the drinking issues and policies as well, we just have to decide to move with the times or decide to sit and watch while we all eventually disappear.

[DeltAlum]

James,

Well thought out. Some excellent points. Thoughtfully written.

But it's still illegal.

And chapters are still being closed.

[James]

Actually, I may not have been clear: I am saying that until we offer positive programs that fulfill the purposes of hazing, hazing is going to continue.

Regardless of the legalities, and regardless of whether we close chapters.

Some of the model pledge programs I have seen are kind of immature.

And then we need to teach the people how to run these programs.

I love the idea of wishful thinking also. Or the idea that changing laws will change behaviors, but history has shown that its hard to legislate social change or morality. We need to offer alternatives and then train chapters in those alternatives.

[DeltAlum]

I thought you made yourself very clear. I understood you points. But I keep seeing chapters closing because of alcohol and hazing violations.

My question is whether it's worth taking that chance.

[33girl]

I know what James is trying to say, I think. And it doesn't apply to the psychos who think 20 swats a night is the way to go....it applies to the chapters who have had a program that has worked for years and then are told everything is hazing, even though no one ever had a complaint about it before.

Some national programs don't do their job...they have been put together more with an eye toward avoiding liability than integrating the pledge into the chapter or helping them to grow. You can't give college students something that reads like a second grade teacher's lesson plan and expect them to welcome it with open arms or not be somewhat offended.

The reason there used to be so much emphasis on pledge class unity is this: you have to learn how to work with others and commit yourself to a small group (the pledge class) before you can feel committed to a large group (the local chapter) and go on to even larger groups (the sorority/fraternity as a national entity).

It's not about belittling or physically abusing people, but we shouldn't have to feel guilty for asking people to truly give of themselves. Until all the national groups develop pledge programs that do that, we're still going to have problems.

[LexiKD]

I don't think it should be all about who is to blame.

If your group is one who hazes and you disagree, then YOU try to change it. I mean, if an organization has been doing things the same for so many years and they don't feel the need to change, it has to come from the members that feel the need to move into the future.

Hazing cannot be a result of what the national organzation has failed to do, I think it is the result of poor membership selection.

[mccoyred]

Originally posted by ecukd

Hazing cannot be a result of what the national organzation has failed to do, I think it is the result of poor membership selection.

The selection process is the most crucial of all membership activities. You cannot 'make' someone into what you want your soror/frat to be; they must be born w/ the innate qualities.

While I disagree w/ the definitions of hazing, I agree that if the members are selected with an eye to quality, hazing would not be necessary.

[shadokat]

As the one sorority on our campus that didn't haze, I'll tell you what, it was a tough thing to do. But guess what? There are folks out there who would love to join Greek organizations, but they don't want to deal with the bullshit of hazing. And we found that a lot on our campus. So we offered an alternative...now mind you, once the other groups caught wind of the alternative, they changed what they said to rushees, telling them that they didn't haze either. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case.

I agree with ecukd...if your organization hazes and you think it's wrong, take a stand. Trust me, there were plenty of women in our group who wanted to haze, but that wasn't why we were founded. We were founded as an alternative to the other groups that already existed. And we weren't going to let that change so we could "fit in". Our national organization has a great non-hazing new member program that works really well and provides for the integration of new members into the sorority, as well as the respect for what they are coming into and also for the history and traditions of the organization.

[D.0.7]

I feel that anyone that gets caught hazing should pay the peanlty. It should consist of determination of there house which mean that there house will no longer be on the campus for 2 yrs per say. Some people may say oh your being to harsh your house might be in the same situation one day maybe. You may be right, but some people have to really think about what they are doing when i comes to hazing, and these day's hazing can be anything from telling someone to tie your shoes or go and get me a cup of water, but we as greeks have to think before we perform and then we wouldn't have to put up with soo much of what's hazing , and what the penalty should be get it...

from: yo guy from the newly acclaim greek Fraternity Mu Omega Pi were taking greek life to a higher lever.... Greek'sss Rulesss and GOD Bless.....

[James]

I believe it is worth the risk to the people in the chapter.

What chapter members seem to unconsciously sense is that if the adopt some of the newer PC models they will end up sacrificing a lot of the tightness and cohesiveness that they value in their chapter.

And I think a lot of them would rather lose their charter than become that which they despise in others. Backbiting, uncommitted, gossipy, and less able to accomplish tasks: Many of the charateristics that we associate with weaker chapters.

And they are not directly surrendering their charters, they are taking a risk, and the odds are really good that nothing will happen.

Now obviously there are degrees of hazing . . .

So again, until we develop comprehensive alternative programs, and train people to train others, then hazing will be encouraged because people won't believe that other methods will accomplish their aims.

As far as punishment goes, I believe more in administrative punishment of individual students involved and to some degree officers.

Suspending a chapter sucks, suspending students is a whole nother message. And will robably be more of a deterrant.

But we need to meet the needs of the chapters

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I thought you made yourself very clear. I understood you points. But I keep seeing chapters closing because of alcohol and hazing violations.

My question is whether it's worth taking that chance.

[DeltAlum]

With all due respect, one of the chapters in my division does not haze in any way.

Last year, they celebrated the 5th Anniversary of their charter with their third Hugh Shields Award for Chapter Excellence (the highest honor a Delt Chapter can receive, given to the top ten chapters in the fraternity.) They have won three Greek Cups, Four Homecoming Grand Prizes, best Greek Organization from the University twice, highest men's GPA twice and just had the best rush in their history (22 pledges to a chapter of 35-40 men.

I would not characterize this chapter as backbiting, etc.

Brotherhood is a relative thing, and hard to quantify, but I have not seen very many instances in which I thought it stronger.

And, boy, do they get things done.

While I won't disagree that, in some cases, hazing can work I will never agree that it is necessary or that it makes a chapter stronger. I've been around too long and seen both sides of that story.

In terms of individual "punishment" instead of painting the entire chapter with the same brush, I think there are certainly times that would be appropriate. I agree that sometimes a chapter suffers because of the actions of that proverbial "few bad apples," but I also think that often the other "apples" can see those problems, and can and should do something to stop them.

[James]

Well actually it just makes you out to be unmanly and without any concept of personal honor. I am not going to mention the distastefulness of the action itself . . .

But I will say that I would respect you a lot more if you personally unzipped your fly to piss on the house of the people you hated at high noon in broad daylight with them watching. THAT would show a personal brand of courage we could all respect, even if we shook our heads at the act itself.

Now, I am not sure about the low quality of little boys you recruit into your chapter, but if you ordered me, active to pledge, to piss on anything, I would have publicly pimp slapped you like the knockneed, pathetic, pimpled faced, ugly, small dick, little bitch that you really are . . . all around the middle of the Quad during a busy day, and taken great pleasure in humiliating you in front of your Brothers, friends, family, girls, and all other on lookers.

And then when the rest of the Acives jumped in to help your sorry loser ass, because you sound like the kind of chapter that believes in safety in numbers and needs beer muscles to operate, I would have cheerfully hospiltalized the first few to reach me because being out numbered would have constituted self defense and legally allowed me to maim and disfigure a few of them, in a very recognizable way, so I could point them out evolution students as an example of how society negates Darwinian survival of the fittest, because surely without laws to protect you and your kind ,someone would have eliminated you a long time ago and so prevented you from infecting the gene pool anymore with your tainted seed. But hey, even evil stunted dwarves with low IQ's and a need for constant psychiatric medication are allowed to breed.

But hey don't be mad, I mean this post with the exact amount of seriousness you posted yours Mad max

Have a great Weekend.

Posted By Madmax

Is it considered hazing if we make our pledges piss on the TKE house?

[Tom Earp]

James, i could not have said it better or more eloquent but would hve screwed up the typing oops!

Being a Mod does change th outlook hey?

If anyting is maliscious or harmful body wise it is considered a crime

maybe of nature or stupidity!

My House had the original composite of the local of which I started and I got VERY PISSED when unnamed stole it and broke the glass as I found out later!

I E-M the chapter and explained what I would do if did not hear from them in 24 hrs. Did Not and E-M their National!

i do not expect my Fraternitys Actives to go into anothers House and Steal anything! If I would find out I would do everything in my Power to get them expuled from the Fraternity!

We are Fraternitys of men Not Frat Boys!!!!!!!!!!!!