Oldest fraternity

[BrianMUDU]

Oops, my bad MrJello, that was my typo.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by matthewg:
I have heard this story with the origin of KS in the 1400 quite a few times now - but hey, just because you carry a possibly similar name doesn't really mean that that is the founding time of the fraternity (which you don't claim). You would need continuous documents to prove the direct line of connection.... should be kind of hard.
All the European fraternities see their roots in fraternity-like structures (called "bursarii") at Bologna, Prague and Paris universities but none claims to be a direct successor of them, which would be pretty bold.

[This message has been edited by matthewg (edited March 12, 2001).]

Matthew - i emailed you -

Otherwise, basically the historical founding of kappa sigma can be linked very convincingly to an organization founded in 1400 - not the current founding, of course, but the historical - for those that care . . .

Rob

[matthewg]

Originally posted by KSig RC:
Matthew - i emailed you -

Otherwise, basically the historical founding of kappa sigma can be linked very convincingly to an organization founded in 1400 - not the current founding, of course, but the historical - for those that care . . .

Rob

Rob, I just edited my mail - I hope that is ok with you and thanks again!!

[Zeta Psi UConn]

Zeta Psi Fraternity of North America, Inc. was founded on June 1, 1847 at NYU

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by SAEalumnus

Sigma Alpha Epsilon was founded on March 9, 1856. I know Sigma Chi was founded in 1855, but I'm not sure of the date (June?).

SAE was founded by a Phi Gam at U of Alabama, correct?
Phi Gamma Delta, 1848 at Jefferson College along with Phi Kappa Psi.

[baby_bruh]

Freemasonry dates back to the days of king Solomon, was established in London, England in 1717 and founded in America in 1784 under the name "Prince Hall" in Boston, Mass.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by baby_bruh

Freemasonry dates back to the days of king Solomon, was established in London, England in 1717 and founded in America in 1784 under the name "Prince Hall" in Boston, Mass.

Ummm. Fremasonry sometimes claims to date back to the days of King Solomon, but any honest masonic historian will tell you that it doesn't really; at most, it dates back to the late middle ages/Renaissance.

And Prince Hall Freemasonry, while certainly important, is but one branch of American Freemasonry, and it was not the first branch established in the US.

[baby_bruh]

Wow... Ok... Well I am a Prince Hall Mason and Prince Hall was and is the only American Masonic Lodge. The others are Scottish and York Rites which originated in Scotland and Yorkshire. And any 'honest' Mason will tell you the truth about where our organization started, which was in the days of King Solomon.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by baby_bruh

Wow... Ok... Well I am a Prince Hall Mason and Prince Hall was and is the only American Masonic Lodge. The others are Scottish and York Rites which originated in Scotland and Yorkshire.

Use that distinction if you want to, but

• There were numerous lodges in America -- including quite a few Grand Lodges -- before Prince Hall Freemasonry was etablished.

• The York Rite did not originate in Yorkshire -- it is a collection of degrees and rites that originated in a number of different places. It was called the York Rite after the tradition that the first masonic meetings in England were held in York.

• Your distinction between Scottish Rite, York Rite and what you call the "American" Rite is somewhat misplaced. Both the Scottish Rite and the York Rite are appendant bodies to the Freemasonry, not separate forms of Freemasonry as such. There is no such thing as a Scottish Rite or a York Rite lodge.

And any 'honest' Mason will tell you the truth about where our organization started, which was in the days of King Solomon.

Believe what you want to. Just know, however, that defending that belief does not enhance your credibility.

[wptw]

Damn you, MC! You always beat me to the retort. I have a theory that you're actually me, 5 minutes from now.

Anyway, I was going to kindly suggest you change the word "honest" to "intelligent". I figured that'd clear this right up in a coupla days.

My observation is these misconceptions are spawned (and sustained) more from simple naïveté rather than willful... dishonesté.

Some minds really struggle with the concept of parable and allegory, just throws a big ol' monkey wrench in there.

Speaking of... did you notice how I stayed quiet when the Bologna thing came up? I'm working on being more sensitive in the face of absurdity. One day at a time!

best,
wptw

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by wptw

Damn you, MC! You always beat me to the retort. I have a theory that you're actually me, 5 minutes from now.

It's a circular thing, since my aspiration is to be you 5 minutes from now.

Anyway, I was going to kindly suggest you change the word "honest" to "intelligent". I figured that'd clear this right up in a coupla days.

And it's just that kind of insight that to which I aspire -- 5 minutes from now. Yes, intelligent would have been a better choice of words.

Speaking of... did you notice how I stayed quiet when the Bologna thing came up? I'm working on being more sensitive in the face of absurdity. One day at a time!

I did notice that. I was both impressed and a tad disappointed -- not so much because of a desire to rehash that again, but because I always like anything that will coax you out from hiding. Of course, that was in a 2001 post in this recently resurrected thread. Nevertheless, I applaud your attempt at Serenity Now.

Don't be a stranger!

[CamiloDU]

Originally Posted by BrianMUDU

Being a MU student, I'm familiar with the Miami Triad. Beta was 1839, Phi Delta in 1849, and Sigma Chi in 1855.

Delta Upsilon, the sixth oldest fraternity, was founded in 1834 at Williams College.

Our manual, The Cornerstone, has a chronological listing of general college fraternities. The first listed is Kappa Alpha Society, Nov 26 1825. Then Sigma Phi, Delta Phi, Alpha Delta Phi, Psi Upsilon, Delta Upsilon, Beta Theta Pi, Chi Psi, Delta Kappa Epsilon, Alpha Sigma Phi, Delta Psi, Zeta Psi, Theta Delta Chi, Phi Gamma Delta, Phi Delta Theta, Phi Kappa Sigma, Phi Kappa Psi, Chi Phi, Sigma Chi, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Theta Chi, Delta Tau Delta in 1858, and so on...

------------------
Brian Sejas
VP-Public Relations
The Miami Chapter of Delta Upsilon
http://www.mudeltau.org

Cool! saved me the trouble of getting my Cornerstone.

Originally Posted by wptw

Damn you, MC! You always beat me to the retort. I have a theory that you're actually me, 5 minutes from now.

Anyway, I was going to kindly suggest you change the word "honest" to "intelligent". I figured that'd clear this right up in a coupla days.

My observation is these misconceptions are spawned (and sustained) more from simple naïveté rather than willful... dishonesté.

Some minds really struggle with the concept of parable and allegory, just throws a big ol' monkey wrench in there.

Speaking of... did you notice how I stayed quiet when the Bologna thing came up? I'm working on being more sensitive in the face of absurdity. One day at a time!

best,
wptw

Glad to see you posting, wptw!

[ZZ-kai-]

Actually, his answer was wrong - Phi Delt is 1848.

Originally Posted by CamiloDU

Cool! saved me the trouble of getting my Cornerstone.

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

SAE was founded by a Phi Gam at U of Alabama, correct?
Phi Gamma Delta, 1848 at Jefferson College along with Phi Kappa Psi.

Incorrect. Noble Leslie DeVotie was the principle of our eight Founders, and he wrote both our ritual and original constitution. None of our Founders were ever members of any other social fraternity, though all of them received bids from at least some of the fraternities on campus at the time (DeVotie having received bids from all of them).