If No Deferred Recruitment, What's A Good Alternative?

[Psi U MC Vito]

I know most of the greeks at my school actually prefer a deferred rush. It gives the orgs more time to get to know somebody before giving them a bid. Like I know a couple of my brothers I didn't like when they were rushing thier first semester, but once I got ot know them they both became some of my favorite.

[minDyG]

IMHO, the "tier system" you described sounds totally acceptable and implementable, but BY NO MEANS should the word "tier" be used in any way! Call it anything but a tier system, and your PNMs will be none the wiser. In fact, I wouldn't put any information regarding how many new members each org is allowed to pledge in any of the literature available to PNMs. That's just begging for each org to gain a negative stigma.

I really hate the idea of a Greek-wide new member period. Every one of the issues you mentioned were covered in our DG new member meetings, and I think that it's really the org's responsibility to instill these values in its new members. My 2 cents.

[Xidelt]

ASTalumna, how do National/International HQ feel about the school telling these orgs that XYZ can't pledge as many new members as ABC because of grades, the possible "tier" system, and extra new member training? I know that the school is there to regulate the chapters and that the school doesn't have to recognize or necessarily allow any of the chapters to be there, but it seems to me that the school administration is really overstepping its bounds with some of these extra conditions that it wants to put on the chapters. If I was a National Council member for one of the GLOs on your campus, I would really be pissed with some of these ideas and the way they are being communicated/handled. I can't believe that no one from HQ has cried foul yet. It is the job of the school administrators and national HQ to govern the chapters TOGETHER. I personally don't think any chapter on campus should be treated differently from any other chapter unless they have violated an already established rule or guideline, such as a hazing incident or having members fall below the minimum GPA.

[littleowl33]

In general, how would you describe Greek life on your campus?
Hopkins is in the Mid-Atlantic area, but I would say the attitude towards Greek Life is much more northern than southern. Recruitment is somewhat competitive, but more so between the sororities who are all trying to bid the "best" PNMs. About 200ish PNMs rush, of which about 175 are freshmen and 25 are sophomores. Virtually everyone who Prefs is placed, but a lot of PNMs tend to drop out if they're not invited back to their favorites. This year, of about 215 originally registered, 145 accepted their bids and pledged. Sophomores face much heavier cuts. Recs are hardly ever received or used, but legacies are taken pretty seriously. About 25% of the student body is Greek and the Independents aren't terribly anti-Greek - mostly just indifferent.

Did your school have deferred recruitment?
Yes. During the fall we are allowed to "recruit" by holding two "Meet the Sisters" events a month. At these events we can't give out anything except small snack items, and they're usually events like watching a TV show premiere or decorating cookies with the sisters. No freshmen women are allowed in sorority members' dorm rooms/residences (we're all unhoused) or at any sorority social events like mixers, date parties or formals, and we cannot buy them any items or food. Normal Social Contact starts on January 1st, and recruitment begins at the end of January (at which time strict silence goes into effect).

What was total?
Chapter total is 85. This spring three chapters were around 120-130, and one was around 85.

What were average new member class sizes for your chapter?
This year everyone had 35-40 (after COB).

On average, how many freshmen dropped out during the new member program?
Every group usually has 1-2 drop.

If a significant number of them dropped, for the most part, what were the reasons?
They're almost always due to "not clicking" with the sisters, but this year more cited financial reasons (not surprisingly).


There are times when I wish we didn't have deferred. The dirty rushing that goes on here is incredible and it's very frustrating. Chapters who follow the rules are at a big disadvantage - PNMs don't know the rules and when they're not being dirty rushed by a group, they figure it's because the group isn't trying or isn't cool. Many PNMs form very solid opinions on the perceived reputations of every chapter, and as a result set their hearts on one or two chapters and refuse to give the others a chance. If they don't get their top choice(s), they drop out. If we didn't have deferred recruitment, I think this would be less of an issue because the PNMs wouldn't have a whole semester of Greeks (and non-Greeks) pounding stereotypes into their heads to try to make their own group sound better. PNMs can also be turned off by this and decide not to rush. They also form their own groups of friends first semester and decide that they don't need to rush because they already have friends.

On the flip side, many of my sisters will say that if we didn't have deferred recruitment, they never would have rushed because they would have been intimidated, not interested, whatever. Having a semester to think about it and get used to the idea can change the minds of people who might be afraid to give it a try.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

AST-

You may have stated this before, but I am super tired at the moment and not scanning well- do other large scale groups on your campus have to go to these silly supplemental type meetings? Example: athletes, work-study, honors program, etc? I just don't see the purpose, and I can even see it being a detriment for getting PNMs to join. Who wants to join a social organization that has at minimum 3 meetings a week? Throw in a few actual social events and every night of the week would be devoted to the sorority. That could seem very overwhelming to a first semester student, even if it is someone who is very interested in Greek Life.

Also, how does the Greek GPA compare to the all student average? Why are the Greeks being singled out?

As for you other questions, I am more than happy to answer them. However, I can tell you that my campus is the complete antithesis of what yours sounds like- would you still be interested or not? I can do it tomorrow when I am less tired.

No other groups on campus are required to have these meetings... which is why I'm completely confused by the whole thing.

The Greek Advisor actually just received word a couple of weeks ago that the all-Greek GPA was once again above the undergraduate GPA for 2008-2009.

And if you could still give me the information for your school, that'd be great

Originally Posted by Xidelt

ASTalumna, how do National/International HQ feel about the school telling these orgs that XYZ can't pledge as many new members as ABC because of grades, the possible "tier" system, and extra new member training? I know that the school is there to regulate the chapters and that the school doesn't have to recognize or necessarily allow any of the chapters to be there, but it seems to me that the school administration is really overstepping its bounds with some of these extra conditions that it wants to put on the chapters. If I was a National Council member for one of the GLOs on your campus, I would really be pissed with some of these ideas and the way they are being communicated/handled. I can't believe that no one from HQ has cried foul yet. It is the job of the school administrators and national HQ to govern the chapters TOGETHER. I personally don't think any chapter on campus should be treated differently from any other chapter unless they have violated an already established rule or guideline, such as a hazing incident or having members fall below the minimum GPA.

This is what I'm concerned about at the moment.

While it doesn't seem as though the tier system will be implemented, the supplemental new member program probably will. From what I understand, last year at convention, AST established that any addtional training/educational program that is taught to the new members must be approved through National Staff (most likely to try to eliminate the possibility of hazing). What the exact procedure is for providing them with this information (and how detailed it has to be), I'm not sure. But this is going to create even more work for the sisters. And I would be very curious to see what would happen if this wasn't approved.

And once again, this is why I'm frustrated that all of this is being established over the summer. No one seems to be aware of how exactly this will work yet, and I don't want the sisters to have to deal with all of these issues in the first few weeks of school.

[ComradesTrue]

AST-

You may have stated this before, but I am super tired at the moment and not scanning well- do other large scale groups on your campus have to go to these silly supplemental type meetings? Example: athletes, work-study, honors program, etc? I just don't see the purpose, and I can even see it being a detriment for getting PNMs to join. Who wants to join a social organization that has at minimum 3 meetings a week? Throw in a few actual social events and every night of the week would be devoted to the sorority. That could seem very overwhelming to a first semester student, even if it is someone who is very interested in Greek Life.

Also, how does the Greek GPA compare to the all student average? Why are the Greeks being singled out?

As for you other questions, I am more than happy to answer them. However, I can tell you that my campus is the complete antithesis of what yours sounds like- would you still be interested or not? I can do it tomorrow when I am less tired.

[Gusteau]

How do the other sororities feel about moving away from deferred?

It seems to me that recruiting first semester freshman is beneficial for the fraternities on your campus but not the sororities. Couldn't your Panhellenic simply choose not to recruit in the fall? This would, of course, be something that all of the sororities would have to agree upon, but it could work out for your campus climate.

As to the supplemental new member ed. I think its unrealistic to have this be more than a one-time Saturday afternoon seminar. Would this happen in the Spring as well, or just the Fall? Also, since this is so you can recruit first semester freshman, shouldn't first semester freshman be the only people required to attend?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

How do the other sororities feel about moving away from deferred?

It seems to me that recruiting first semester freshman is beneficial for the fraternities on your campus but not the sororities. Couldn't your Panhellenic simply choose not to recruit in the fall? This would, of course, be something that all of the sororities would have to agree upon, but it could work out for your campus climate.

As to the supplemental new member ed. I think its unrealistic to have this be more than a one-time Saturday afternoon seminar. Would this happen in the Spring as well, or just the Fall? Also, since this is so you can recruit first semester freshman, shouldn't first semester freshman be the only people required to attend?

I honestly don't know what the overall feeling is about this whole thing. But I think that where all of the chapters have struggled so much for numbers, they're seeing it as being beneficial. But with recruitment numbers going up recently (for the sororities), I'm not sure.

IFC actually made this whole thing happen, and Panhellenic voted (about a year and a half ago) to support their decision and encourage them to start the process of trying to get deferred recruitment done away with. I'm not sure if they realize that IFC and Panhellenic are two completely different entities and each can choose to do things on their own. So.. 1.) I'm confused as to why Panhellenic was asked to approve this, 2.) I'm not sure if they know that one group can have deferred recruitment while the other doesn't, and 3.) Neither group has yet to vote on this supplemental new member program, and it seems to me as if it's just being.. throw in there, so to speak, as an "amendment" to a vote that occurred more than a year ago.

The supplemental new member program would happen in both the fall and the spring. There are new students who start school in January, so they would have to do it both semesters.

And if you were only to have first semester freshmen go through this extra program, it would be like you were singling them out. There's no way that would fly with the national organization... AST's, at least... and I'm guessing the same would go for the others.

[alphagamgirl06]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

It seems to me that recruiting first semester freshman is beneficial for the fraternities on your campus but not the sororities. Couldn't your Panhellenic simply choose not to recruit in the fall?

I am not sure what the fraternity/ sorority relationships are like at PSB but that would not work for my school. We have found that girls are easily influenced by boys. Have fraternity recruitment in the fall allows guys a chance to learn all about their fraternities relationship with each different sorority and the stereotypes, giving them more information to tell their girlsfriend etc. We have this issue big time and our recruitments are only a week or two apart. That why we had to go to sorority recruitment is always first.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by alphagamgirl06

I am not sure what the fraternity/ sorority relationships are like at PSB but that would not work for my school. We have found that girls are easily influenced by boys. Have fraternity recruitment in the fall allows guys a chance to learn all about their fraternities relationship with each different sorority and the stereotypes, giving them more information to tell their girlsfriend etc. We have this issue big time and our recruitments are only a week or two apart. That why we had to go to sorority recruitment is always first.

And the other side of the coin is....the guys join fraternities, get to actually KNOW the women in the Greek system and advise the women rushing in the spring about what the sorority members are truly like, not stereotypes. This is a very small system and I'd bet that the guys pledging in the fall will personally know the majority of the people in the Greek system, sororities and fraternities, by the end of the semester. (Their chapter sizes are smaller than your NM class sizes, for comparison.)

Xidelt - a lot of the national HQs used to just bend over and take whatever the school was giving them as far as supplemental programs, ranking systems etc were concerned. They were terrified of losing their chapter on campus if they didn't comply. Now that these things have been around for a few years, they see that they're losing chapters ANYWAY because of the way the school uses the rankings, and they're putting their feet down. Thank heaven.

ASTalumna06 - it definitely sounds like the chapters assume if the guys do something, the girls must do it also. This is definitely not the case. Ask them to call anyone at Clarion if they don't believe you. I guess they a vote to "support" IFC's decision would help when they went to the administration, which kind of is true, but it doesn't mean Panhel has to follow suit.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by alphagamgirl06

I am not sure what the fraternity/ sorority relationships are like at PSB but that would not work for my school. We have found that girls are easily influenced by boys. Have fraternity recruitment in the fall allows guys a chance to learn all about their fraternities relationship with each different sorority and the stereotypes, giving them more information to tell their girlsfriend etc. We have this issue big time and our recruitments are only a week or two apart. That why we had to go to sorority recruitment is always first.

In addition to what 33girl said, the campus was using deferred recruitment beforehand so there was a whole semester for rumors and stereotyping before recruitment anyway. And it's true that fraternity influence may be positive.

But let's face it, if schools that have formal recruitment in August before school even starts have tent talk the rumors are going to fly regardless of timing.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I still agree with others that this supplemental thing is somwthing that all freshman should already have, not something for just greeks. I know quite a few schiil have a freshman orientation type course. Yours doesn't? Also Ie would probally make more sense for new pledges to do something like Greeklifeedu instead, which is targeted towards Greeks.

[pearlbubbles]

I'm a little confused; so the sororities this school only do/have always only done COB?

I'm not really sure how this would work. But I think that there definitely needs to be some sort of Panhel meeting to acclimate everyone to the new process.

PNMs only visiting events they want to sounds like my campus' informal recruitment. But for formal, how can you know if you're in the correct place if you haven't met every chapter? I certainly wouldn't have been able to decide the correct house for me based on my post-high school inklings.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by pearlbubbles

I'm a little confused; so the sororities this school only do/have always only done COB?

I'm not really sure how this would work. But I think that there definitely needs to be some sort of Panhel meeting to acclimate everyone to the new process.

PNMs only visiting events they want to sounds like my campus' informal recruitment. But for formal, how can you know if you're in the correct place if you haven't met every chapter? I certainly wouldn't have been able to decide the correct house for me based on my post-high school inklings.

Yes, we only have COB at the moment. We just bid whoever we want, whenever we want. We do still have a "bid day" and none of the chapters are permitted to distribute bids before then, during that given semester. There is also a date given on which official recruitment parties can begin. It usually allows for 2 weeks between the start of recruitment and bid day. But bid day consists of PNMs receiving their bids (which they can receive from all three chapters), and they have 24 hours to go to the Student Activities office to sign it. The whole process has become so much more organized since I was active, but it's still a very uneventful day. After that day, you can hand out more bids if you like. My chapter would usually schedule at least one more recruitment event after bid day, which was basically by invitation only, in order to get to know any PNMs that maybe the sisters didn't get to know well enough throughout the recruitment period... because again, PNMs aren't required to attend all of our events.

I was lucky enough to end up where I was supposed to be (especially because I didn't really know what I was getting myself into in the beginning). Other girls aren't so lucky. It's not that they hate where they are... they just kind of wish they had the opportunity to look at other chapters. And yes, I have first-hand experience with someone saying this to me. Don't get me wrong; all PNMs have the opportunity to visit all three chapters (Panhellenic organizes it so that no two parties overlap), but it's almost as though you go to one party, and you just keep going back without the slightest thought about other chapters and/or without even knowing that they exist. I don't know what the Greek atmosphere is like at your school, but here, people are clueless. If you thought you didn't know a lot before you joined, I'm sure you knew 10 times as much as PNMs do here.

It's kind of funny to me that people don't understand only doing COB, because it's all I've ever known. But at the same time, I can see how it might be confusing. At other campuses, COB is used to fill open spaces, and are usually events attended by PNMs who have been personally invited. Our COB events are held in the student union (we don't have houses) and they are open to whoever would like to walk in. In the past, that didn't really happen anyway, and the only people who showed up were pretty much the people we personally invited (through a friendly "hey, you should come to this event tonight"), but they weren't people we had already met through formal. We rely very heavily on bringing in our friends, and meeting as many new people as possible.

Basically, we recruit like the fraternities.

[Xidelt]

AST, your greek advisor sounds like an ass clown.