No place for average PNMs?

[baci]

I love that this thread was originated and it is interesting to see what people say from all over the U.S. I have to be truly honest here from the experience I have at competitive Florida universities. This experience comes from being in an org, helping behind the scenes, and staying close to young ladies who are active members.

It is sad to admit this and actually put it in print. It is all about looks as most important. You have to have the look that the org is seeking! There are many girls who get a pass on everything else if they have "the look". These orgs want to stay at the top and looks are the key. On campus, the student population ranks top chapters by looks. At times, people will say "are you asking me to rank the top chapter overall when it comes to service,activities, grades etc. or just top?" I laugh when I hear this. It doesn't matter if you are in state or out.

I have heard this numerous times in the last few years - "I met and got to know some amazing young girls during recruitment, but they didn't have the looks. We had to cut them." Then I hear - "I met gorgeous girls who lacked conversation and what have you, but we voted them through." What does that tell you?

Honestly, you need the GPA, service, activities, leadership etc. because others will have it, but if you don't have the looks the rest won't take you. (pretty much most girls have the stats behind them or they would not have been admitted to the university in the first place) Let's face it, there are many girls with average looks and they won't make the cuts no matter what their resumes look like. Even the lower tier groups are trying to gain the best looking girls to pull their chapter up.

This is defintely what I know in Florida. Maybe elsewhere it is different, but if your genes were not as kind to you - you won't have as much success as you had hoped. Well, there may be a few exceptions, but I do know for fact that many sad PNMs have faced this and they have amazing stats behind them, converse well, and have connections. They have been cut by even the bottom chapters.

I always say to PNMs - remember your peers judge you and it isn't always what you bring to the table! It is about what they see. It breaks my heart, but that is life.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by angels&angles

Why paint it as them rejecting you rather than a reasoned decision you made on your own?

Simple.

If you paint it as being rejected, then you can blame the system and talk about how "tough it is."

It's alot easier for a PNM to say "recruitment at ___ sucks, it's all about who you know. I heard that 800 girls were cut this year after first rounds! It was sooo brutal!" than it is to admit to dropping out of the process and not giving it a chance.

There are quite a few times I've seen a post saying "I went bidless!" only to have the PNM come back (after someone asks) and say "Well I did get one invite to XYZ but I didn't see myself there."

PNMs are certainly allowed to accept/decline any invites they get, or drop out of recruitment. However, I feel like if you do, you forfeit the right to complain about how the system works.

[APhiAnna]

To be fair too, what you are hearing from nervous freshmen PNMs is never going to be true. Girls in our own chapters have a hard enough time keeping it straight. If you ask any PNM at any school that suffered even minor cuts, I guarantee you they will tell you that they just went through the most competitive rush that XYZ University has EVER had. EVER. Obviously top tier ABC may have had a very good idea of who they want to pledge, but I guarantee you that, no matter what campus, there are many chapters who are much more open-minded. And really, do you honestly believe that "XYZ who hasn't made quota in 3 years" started the rush process saying "these 100 girls are the only ones we are interested in bidding and if you aren't already in-state and BFF with at least 3 girls then we will cut you?" No. They are going to be open-minded about EVERY PNM, but they are still going to want women that promote their chapter in a positive way so they can grow. So it's probably not that every single recruitment chair at every single chapter had it out for your since Day #1.

Just go give an example, these are reasons why I, my sisters or my friends at other schools/chapters released women that would fall into "good on paper, good picture, etc" categories. If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them until they did one of the following:
* Were you a complainer? "OMG, it's soooo hot...", "Haha sorry I'm sooo tired", "Yeah my roommate is kind of weird and lame", "The dorm food is sooo gross"...
* Did you rest on being shy and think that the burden was on the chapters to realize you'd be more outgoing starting three weeks in?
* Did you only bother getting recs for what your friend's sister's boyfriend told you were the three best sororities?
* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier? Top tier may not have wanted you, but would anybody else want a sister who acted bored either?
* Did you wear clothing in a color that made your normally beautiful skin look pasty? Was your dress silhouette more appropriate to 2003 than 2009?
* Did you talk about how much money you have? Nothing can make somebody look poorer than that...
* Did you only ask questions about the chapters GPA and philanthropy and housing points? We wanted a sister to have fun with too.
* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).
* Did you bring up God every sentence to an atheist? Did you roll your eyes when a sister mentioned that XYZ also has a Bible study?
* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni? Or did you even go so far as to leave the topless kegstand photo on Facebook?
* Were you an "eager beaver" who was trying too hard to be bubbly and "hug attacked" every other member you met?

There are SO many reasons why you may have had a bad rush even if you were average looking with a great GPA.

At the end of it though, blaming the sororities for your mistake will hinder you in life. Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

[Zillini]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

First off a correction or rather clarification. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs who attend Pref round, not who participate in Recruitment.

Second, as to why bottom tier (and frankly I hate that phrase as well as the whole concept) Chapters might cut perfectly good PNMs. If Susie Super was released from her dream Chapters and even if she then accepts invites from bottom tiers, she may still get cut. Why? At 18-19 it is really hard to control your emotions and the disappointment she is experiencing may show through. Or perhaps in the early rounds Suzie acted disinterested because she never dreamed that the top tiers would release here. Perhaps the only reason why the bottom tier Chapter didn't cut her because of this was due to the fact that Panhellenic told them they could only release X amount.

Even bottom tier Chapters have standards and more than just GPAs and resumes. They don't want to extend bids to PNMs who really don't want to be a member of their organization because many may end up dropping out.

This is why it is so important for PNMs to not only keep an open mind and be interested in all Chapters. More importantly they need to show it to all the Chapters at every round, not just in the rounds at the Chapters they are left with.

[Benzgirl]

I always laughed at one girl in my chapter that would say, "I'm black-balling any girl that is a name-dropper" and her roommate would follow up with, "I'm black-balling any girl that doesn't drop my name". Of course, the second one was in gest, but I can't say the first one was.

The bottom line is you may never know what you said or did that rubbed someone the wrong way.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

In the age of quota and RFM, I am having a hard time understanding how a PNM with nothing “wrong” with her except being out of state and/or not having recs can get cut from ALL chapters at a competitive campus. Note I am NOT talking about a PNM who gets cut by all chapters but one or two.

By nothing “wrong”, I mean this theoretical PNM is simply average (not poor) in the area of grades, involvement, looks, and conversation, and she does not have a reputation issue. Especially at academically competitive universities, the chances of a PNM looking poor on paper are slim because she wouldn't have been admitted to the university in the first place.

Quota is set to optimize the number of PNMs joining chapters and the number of chapters making quota. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

With RFM, the “top” chapters are forced to make the steepest cuts the first round, and the “bottom” chapters are advised to make minimal cuts throughout the process, cutting PNMs who do not meet their membership standards (poor grades, poor conversation/personality, poor personal presentation, etc). This optimizes the placement rate.

Even if this theoretical PNM is from out of state and/or does not have recs (read: unknown), “bottom” chapters have the luxury of not being forced to make steep cuts and therefore have time to get to know her through conversation.

Is there no place for a PNM who is average and unknown? I am not talking about “top 6” at UT or “Old Row” at Bama, etc. I know this may be treading into MS territory, but do “bottom” chapters at competitive schools cut PNMs when there seems to be “no reason” (none of the reasons discussed above) to cut her?

If there are a lot of PNMs getting cut for “no reason”, that’s usually when a Panhellenic looks to Extension.

Perhaps the PNMs/mothers of PNMs released by ALL chapters are simply not telling us on GC any “reason” they could have been cut. And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

im total lane swerving, but i feel like regardless of council this will apply.



while it's great to go into Rush with an optimistic view about one's PNM-ness, if youre not coming with something extra, who's going to remember you? and this is good or bad extra, which is why there are a small percentage at the "oh hayle to the naw" end and the "omg this girl fart smells like rainbows and sunshines, give her a bid now" ends--those PNMs had to have done something out of the ordinary to stand out. Or, on paper, they were so extraordinary (whether its 4.0/team captain or 2.5/general slacker) their fate was kinda written in the sand from the beginning.

i dont think you have a hard time understanding, i think you have a hard time believing and accepting it. especially when there are posters who are outright saying things like "if you're wearing a 5-year old dress or complain about the hear, its a wrap."

Having a "place" for "average PNMs" is like an place for average people in life in all situations-dating/relationships, classes/grades, promotions, etc. There's a place for the average but opportunity doesnt always knock, or as often. It's called "competitive" for a reason.

[I.C. a Pi Phi]

I think these factors are out of the PNM's control but do happen.

1. At a larger school, when round one consists of 12 parties day 1 and 6 parties day 2. Who do you think are going to be remembered more? The chapter girls who see 12 rounds of girls, then vote, or those who only see 6 rounds of girls?

2. Your last name. If a chapter starts discussion at the beginning of the alphabet, and seven hours later you are at the "w" 's and everyone just wants to go to bed. Or vice versa, the chapter discusses and cuts heavily at the beginning of the alphabet because they are fresh, but seven hours later has significantly less discussion.

These are just random thoughts, but things that can happen. Another reason why there is not only *one* perfect house for each PNM.

[KSUViolet06]

Another thing:

There usually are a couple chapters at a school that EVERY PNM wants to be in.

The truth of the matter is that these top chapters are likely the ones that have to make the heaviest cuts.

I find that the most Average PNM go into recruitment wanting the top chapters that everyone else wants. She likely will say that she sees herself the most in the top groups and feels that she fits best with them.

Only problem is that the top chapters have heavy cuts to make and Average PNM is not going to get an invite. She is typically not as prepared for recruitment as those girls who DO get invites back to Top Chapters.

So she gets cut by Top Chapters, and even though she still has some options, she is upset and feels that she fit best in those, and drops out.

I guess my point is that alot of times, the Average PNM thinks she belongs in a top chapter, not realizing that those chapters an only extend so many invites and are only considering the Top PNMs.

Everybody wants to be an ABC or an XYZ, but everybody is not going to get an invite. It's just part of life.

[myopicsunflower]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them

...or what you saw on their Facebook profile might have made given you reason to cut them.

* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier?

...or if you spoke rudely about ABC at XYZ's party because you "so knew" you were going XYZ.

* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).

O_O

Did this PNM pledge anywhere???

* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni?

This goes back to recs. Everyone knows that recs are important and that, at some schools, you need them for every house. But you want GOOD recs, and because alumnae send recs directly to chapters, you don't know if an alumna wrote a rec that said "This girl is a big bowl of awesome and would be a tremendous asset to your chapter" or a "no rec."

Hypothetical situations:

* You ask your math teacher to write a rec for you, because you've gotten good grades and have good rapport with her. Your teacher likes you well enough, but she has also caught wind of how you had a few weekend benders, and she's heard from teacher lunchroom talk about how you act with peers in other classes. As much as your math teacher likes you as a student, she may not think you are a fit for her sorority.

* You send your resume to the local Alumnae Panhellenic. Anna Alumna from XYZ doesn't know you personally, but she sees that you go to Local High School, and her friend's daughter went there. So Anna Alumna makes a phone call. Her friend's daughter may have had bad experiences with you, or she may have heard bad things about you. Anna Alumna is concerned. She may write a "no rec," or she may write one that is tentative. Either way, that rec is not a glowing one, and it could lead to a cut during rush.

Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

Absolutely.

[UGAalum94]

I think there are places for average PNMs but "average" isn't where a lot of us on the outside really think it is. Grade inflation and higher admission standards at some schools make a GPA that used to seem awesome only average and a list of activities that used to be dazzling only average.

So a girl who used to be average in GPA and activities is now actually below average for the campus but alumnae and parents may not realize it. And this is without getting in to how a PNMs reputation might not be "average" and adults might not know it.

I don't quite look at things like Baci does. I think looks are a component and will help a girl a lot if the other factors are all in place, but at my campus a girl who was "only" good looking probably would have been looking at middle chapters on down. For top chapters, you apparently needed looks, activities, GPA, awesome personality, and often a certain kind of family background. Sometime even average looking girls who were excellent people ended up in top chapters.

As far as the OP, once you take the aspect of grade and credential inflation out of the picture, I think the majority of girls getting bids are "average" for the campus. When I look at the girls I know who rush at UGA and Auburn, what separates out the PNMs who end up at top chapters from mid and low tier chapters ultimately comes down to high school popularity. I think it's mainly that the girls who are already at college want the most popular girls from their high schools but it may also be that the really popular girls know how to turn it out in social situations like rush.

[AGDee]

I would think some of this may have to do with who the PNM cuts early in her recruitment too. If there are 14 chapters and they have to go from 14-10-7-3, for example, it's possible that for second parties, 2 top chapters dropped the PNM and the PNM dropped the bottom 2 chapters to go to 10 parties. The next cuts, perhaps 2 more of the top chapters drop the PNM and the PNM drops the bottom 1, getting the middle 7 parties to attend. It's possible THEN that those middle 7, having to make major cuts before Pref would all cut the PNM. Therefore, there could have been 3 chapters that might have really liked and wanted her, but she cut them early on.

It's also possible that she lacked enthusiasm for those bottom chapters and the chapters could tell. You don't really want someone who doesn't want you, no matter how small you are.

[UGAalum94]

AGDee, what you describe is certainly possible and I think Carnation has observed that pattern in real life when she's talked about how it's actually better to get hard after first round than second, for those reasons.

But I'm still kind of skeptical like other people earlier in the thread. The number of girls completely cut out or dropped from recruitment is so small at the places it gets reported.

Your hypothetical scenario requires seven chapters to almost be at an even place in RFM or just that she be the most unlucky girl in the world to miss the bid list at every one but not get released earlier from some of the seven.

I think that some girls may truly "slip thorough the cracks" and get dropped even though there's nothing wrong with them, but I think it's far more likely that the majority of "average" PNMs get placed.

[jamalter]

This is an interesting thread for a mom of a PNM at Alabama, who is trying very hard to understand the whole process. I've never been involved with greek life, and my daughter certainly was not "prepared" like I'm reading so many were. This leads me to my thoughts on why my daughter had such an easy time with the process as opposed to some very sad stories that I've read in GC, and may serve as advice to other PNMs trying to understand how to be successful.

My daughter really is "average" at least compared to some I've read about on here. She had a 3.3 GPA, was captain of her volleyball team, had a few minor clubs/organizations that she was involved in (no leadership roles however), and went to a small private school where her rank was right in the middle. She is cute, but not drop dead gorgeous. She didn't take recs seriously, and had recs for less than half the houses. In fact, up until about a week before rush, she was undecided if she was going to go through with it. But at Bama, if you rush, you move in a week early, and this sounded good to her, so she started the process. She had no idea about the different houses and therefore, had a completely open mind going in. I think this is what differentiated her. She pretty much enjoyed every house she visited, maximized all her options every step of the way, and in the end went to the max of 3 pref parties and loved them all.

Had I read GC prior to this process, I would have told her not to bother - she would never make the cut. Bama is too competitive and she wouldn't stand a chance. So why do I think she was sucessful? Because she was relaxed, open minded and never stressed about not making the cut at this house or the other. And that's what I would stress to all new PNMs.

Having said this, no offense, but I still think the process is bizarre.

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

In the age of quota and RFM, I am having a hard time understanding how a PNM with nothing “wrong” with her except being out of state and/or not having recs can get cut from ALL chapters at a competitive campus. Note I am NOT talking about a PNM who gets cut by all chapters but one or two.

By nothing “wrong”, I mean this theoretical PNM is simply average (not poor) in the area of grades, involvement, looks, and conversation, and she does not have a reputation issue. Especially at academically competitive universities, the chances of a PNM looking poor on paper are slim because she wouldn't have been admitted to the university in the first place.

Quota is set to optimize the number of PNMs joining chapters and the number of chapters making quota. Quota is proportional to the number of PNMs in recruitment.

With RFM, the “top” chapters are forced to make the steepest cuts the first round, and the “bottom” chapters are advised to make minimal cuts throughout the process, cutting PNMs who do not meet their membership standards (poor grades, poor conversation/personality, poor personal presentation, etc). This optimizes the placement rate.

Even if this theoretical PNM is from out of state and/or does not have recs (read: unknown), “bottom” chapters have the luxury of not being forced to make steep cuts and therefore have time to get to know her through conversation.

Is there no place for a PNM who is average and unknown? I am not talking about “top 6” at UT or “Old Row” at Bama, etc. I know this may be treading into MS territory, but do “bottom” chapters at competitive schools cut PNMs when there seems to be “no reason” (none of the reasons discussed above) to cut her?

If there are a lot of PNMs getting cut for “no reason”, that’s usually when a Panhellenic looks to Extension.

Perhaps the PNMs/mothers of PNMs released by ALL chapters are simply not telling us on GC any “reason” they could have been cut. And it’s also likely that PNMs who get cut from all chapters are overrepresented on GC because those in the know/with connections don’t need to come to GC for information.

Hi Violet. I almost think the new release methods make recruitment more competitive. With the way our school is doing recruitment, these girls get 15 minutes to show who they are during the first round. If your reserved or shy it is really tough to shine through as the top PNM's going through. If you have done any membership selection during the past couple of years you know your releasing PNM's that would make excellent members and it really becomes a numbers game (getting to the invite number panhellenic gives you) more then any thing.

I worked with a "bottom" Chapter and like someone mentioned on here they do release women who are mean and rude to the girls. I have seen PNM's make active women cry because they were so awful. It would be hard to have those women come back. Some "bottom" Chapters like the fact that their Chapters are small- it had the house I worked with split. There was actually a group of women who didn't want to grow and prosper. They felt they joined the Chapter because of the size and it didn't need to change. What I don't understand is "bottom" chapters releasing for grades. I think if I was trying to get numbers up I would take grade exceptions. I have seen Chapters pick up some good women this way.

My niece went through recruitment right after the new release figures were implemented. 4.0, beautiful, good morals and values- really the total package. She had a flawless recruitment until the night before pref where she was dropped by everyone, but 2 houses. I got a call in tears and I told her to stick it out. She did pledged a GREAT group who was in a rebuilding phase, became recruitment chair, made a difference and it is now a top house on campus 4 years later. Her adorable sister came in right behind her. Even though she couldn't see herself in this group at first it has worked out great for her and her sister. There are happy endings

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

To be fair too, what you are hearing from nervous freshmen PNMs is never going to be true. Girls in our own chapters have a hard enough time keeping it straight. If you ask any PNM at any school that suffered even minor cuts, I guarantee you they will tell you that they just went through the most competitive rush that XYZ University has EVER had. EVER. Obviously top tier ABC may have had a very good idea of who they want to pledge, but I guarantee you that, no matter what campus, there are many chapters who are much more open-minded. And really, do you honestly believe that "XYZ who hasn't made quota in 3 years" started the rush process saying "these 100 girls are the only ones we are interested in bidding and if you aren't already in-state and BFF with at least 3 girls then we will cut you?" No. They are going to be open-minded about EVERY PNM, but they are still going to want women that promote their chapter in a positive way so they can grow. So it's probably not that every single recruitment chair at every single chapter had it out for your since Day #1.

Just go give an example, these are reasons why I, my sisters or my friends at other schools/chapters released women that would fall into "good on paper, good picture, etc" categories. If you saw their resume and their Facebook profile you may have been excited about pledging them until they did one of the following:
* Were you a complainer? "OMG, it's soooo hot...", "Haha sorry I'm sooo tired", "Yeah my roommate is kind of weird and lame", "The dorm food is sooo gross"...
* Did you rest on being shy and think that the burden was on the chapters to realize you'd be more outgoing starting three weeks in?
* Did you only bother getting recs for what your friend's sister's boyfriend told you were the three best sororities?
* Were you rude or disinterested to some chapters during the first round because you "so knew" you were going top tier? Top tier may not have wanted you, but would anybody else want a sister who acted bored either?
* Did you wear clothing in a color that made your normally beautiful skin look pasty? Was your dress silhouette more appropriate to 2003 than 2009?
* Did you talk about how much money you have? Nothing can make somebody look poorer than that...
* Did you only ask questions about the chapters GPA and philanthropy and housing points? We wanted a sister to have fun with too.
* Did you mention you are going to get your sororities letters tattooed on your ass? (This REALLY was brought up to somebody I know during recruitment in EVERY chapter the PNM visited).
* Did you bring up God every sentence to an atheist? Did you roll your eyes when a sister mentioned that XYZ also has a Bible study?
* Did some of your more questionable high school nights end up becoming known to sisters or alumni? Or did you even go so far as to leave the topless kegstand photo on Facebook?
* Were you an "eager beaver" who was trying too hard to be bubbly and "hug attacked" every other member you met?

There are SO many reasons why you may have had a bad rush even if you were average looking with a great GPA.

At the end of it though, blaming the sororities for your mistake will hinder you in life. Rush is a great way of seeing how you do in first impressions. These first impressions will affect your first dates, your job interviews, your impression on coworkers/in laws/professors, meeting with your prospective country club/arts guild/book club/PTA/intramural team/church/synagogue/children's friends parents...and maybe even the second/third/fourth time you rush. It would behoove you to not place the blame on others and sit down and analyze why you may have made some mistakes and how you can correct them for the next time first impressions matter.

Very Good! I can tell you that you are so right on a lot of your list especially this one:Top tier may not have wanted you, but would anybody else want a sister who acted bored either? I can not tell you how many times yesterday I saw disinterested, bored, boring, not paying attention and looking around the room (I would totally do that). I think sometimes these women don't even know they are doing this or acting this way. The other common mistake by the last 2 parties these PNM's are pooped- just like the actives are, but they continue to stay alert, upbeat and positive. Some of the PNM's are done and it shows in their conversations and body language and the actives picked up on it.