National Ritual Celebration Week

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yeah, but to jump from the knowledge that many orgs have Christian basis to "I think that a lot of rituals are outdated, in that they are too religious for the increasing diversity of their orgs" implies that you know what specifically is contained in other org's rituals. Being based on religion and being two religious are too very different things.

Okay, let me put it a different way...if your ritual is based in Christian scripture, it probably makes non-Christians in your org uncomfortable, to varying degrees. I don't consider it a positive thing, then, having a week dedicated to reflecting on ritual. Instead, as I explain better above, I think it would be more productive to reflect on the core values of the org, or the NPC core values, or whatever else.

[AOII Angel]

The problem with addressing any group other than your own is that you don't know if AChiO and Tri Delta have any specifically religious undertones in their rituals. They may include the ideals of their creeds very well in their rituals. Don't speak for them.

Having a Christian basis for ritual doesn't have to be a factor to exclude people. The level of biblical involvement may vary widely. I've actually read several rituals. They are quite beautiful, and so far, I haven't come across a single one that includes a significant amount of biblical content. They may have Christian values, but there are values that many non Christian people hold in common with Christians that you find in the Christian tradition.

If there is a ritual out there that demands you recognize Jesus as your savior or requires you to take communion, etc, then I would have a problem. And if you are wondering, I would count myself as extremely non-religious.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The problem with addressing any group other than your own is that you don't know if AChiO and Tri Delta have any specifically religious undertones in their rituals. They may include the ideals of their creeds very well in their rituals. Don't speak for them.

Having a Christian basis for ritual doesn't have to be a factor to exclude people. The level of biblical involvement may vary widely. I've actually read several rituals. They are quite beautiful, and so far, I haven't come across a single one that includes a significant amount of biblical content. They may have Christian values, but there are values that many non Christian people hold in common with Christians that you find in the Christian tradition.

If there is a ritual out there that demands you recognize Jesus as your savior or requires you to take communion, etc, then I would have a problem. And if you are wondering, I would count myself as extremely non-religious.

I don't understand how you talk about having read several rituals, and then tell me that there is no way I could know what is in someone else's ritual.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I don't understand how you talk about having read several rituals, and then tell me that there is no way I could know what is in someone else's ritual.

Well, you never claimed to have read any so...

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

What I am saying is that many of the (NPC) orgs have open mottos/creeds/whatevers that reflect their core beliefs. For example, Phi Mu: love, honor, truth. Alpha Chi Omega: love, unselfishness, sincerity. Delta Delta Delta: truth, self-sacrifice, friendship. I think that these core values are very important, and our members should strive to live by them. They are, in my opinion, more important than some specific words in a book.

It's harder to answer the second part of your question. I am not against participating in a ritual based on Christian scripture, as I think that there is value in the historical significance of continuing a tradition set down by our founders. However, even many of the open mottos reference God in a way that I personally find to be exclusive.

So basically, what I'm trying to say, is that I think values are important, and I think historical continuity is important, but the religious aspect makes me uncomfortable, and I think that a week set aside to "reflect on ritual" risks elevating the latter.

I get what your saying, I just don't think discomfort equals outdated.

Basically, one of the most important realizations for fraternity and sorority members is the acknowledgment that their organization is larger than themselves. Part of both the humility and pride of being part of such a vast and meaningful organization is sacrificing a little bit of yourself for the common good. If you can't make sacrifices for those you care about you (the general you) are just not fit for fraternity/sorority life. One member's occasional discomfort is not more important that the organization as a whole.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

I get what your saying, I just don't think discomfort equals outdated.

Basically, one of the most important realizations for fraternity and sorority members is the acknowledgment that their organization is larger than themselves. Part of both the humility and pride of being part of such a vast and meaningful organization is sacrificing a little bit of yourself for the common good. If you can't make sacrifices for those you care about you (the general you) are just not fit for fraternity/sorority life. One member's occasional discomfort is not more important that the organization as a whole.

From a minority person's standpoint, that discomfort is just one more in a long list of discomforts that they're expected to 'deal with' throughout their everyday lives. Newspapers assume the 'standard' person is white and only identify someone by race if the person is non-white. Co-workers assume that everyone's Christian and say a very specifically Christian prayer before a holiday meal. It gets wearing on a person when it's always "them" who is expected to be humble for the whole.

I really don't disagree that ultimately it's worth it for some people, but I don't think it's an issue that can be swept away as humility vs. pride. And I think that her opinions on whether or not ritual is outdated is not because of discomfort but because of the same thing that causes the discomfort, if I'm reading her right. In her description they're both symptoms of the same problem, not one caused by the other.

Again, the inability to talk in specifics makes this a pretty pointless discussion and only enhances my opinion that any sort of concerted effort among GLOs to 'recognize ritual' is fruitless. We should support our ritual - or work from within to change it if we so desire - but we can't really talk about things otherwise.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I don't understand how you talk about having read several rituals, and then tell me that there is no way I could know what is in someone else's ritual.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Well, you never claimed to have read any so...

Exactly. I still won't speak for the groups that I have read, nor will I specifically say which rituals I have read. All I will say is that AOII's ritual has meaning now as it did when it was written, and can speak to our members who are Christian, non-Christian or even atheist. My whole point is that generalizations will get you in trouble. You have specific knowledge ONLY of the rituals you have read. I do agree with Drole, however, that celebrating ritual across orgs is a bit awkward. But, to each her own.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Well, you never claimed to have read any so...

Truedat.

And even if she had, reading other orgs' rituals doesn't mean one should speak on other orgs' rituals in such general conversation. Both DeltaBetaBaby and AOII Angel need to be careful as to not seem as though they are particularly well-informed or authorities on rituals other than their own.

Plenty of people have access to GLOs' rituals and don't read them or read them but you would never know because they don't discuss them, even vaguely. I can access rituals for other NPHC orgs but even reading them doesn't mean much beyond the words on the paper. Since there are nonChristian NPHCers, as well as Christian NPHCers who have denounced because they feel that Greekdom is the antiChrist, there is something to be said for what's embedded in "ritual" and beyond the words. I don't know about other GLOs but Delta is to be taken as a whole and not picked a part because someone has read some document (which isn't "secret" because secrets aren't put in print and distributed in paper form).

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Truedat.

And even if she had, reading other orgs' rituals doesn't mean one should speak on other orgs' rituals in such general conversation. Both DeltaBetaBaby and AOII Angel need to be careful as to not seem as though they are particularly well-informed or authorities on rituals other than their own.

Plenty of people have access to GLOs' rituals and don't read them or read them but you would never know because they don't discuss them, even vaguely. I can access rituals for other NPHC orgs but even reading them doesn't mean much beyond the words on the paper. Since there are nonChristian NPHCers, as well as Christian NPHCers who have denounced because they feel that Greekdom is the antiChrist, there is something to be said for what's embedded in "ritual" and beyond the words. I don't know about other GLOs but Delta is to be taken as a whole and not picked a part because someone has read some document (which isn't "secret" because secrets aren't put in print and distributed in paper form).

See above. I completely agree.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Truedat.

And even if she had, reading other orgs' rituals doesn't mean one should speak on other orgs' rituals in such general conversation. Both DeltaBetaBaby and AOII Angel need to be careful as to not seem as though they are particularly well-informed or authorities on rituals other than their own.

You are right, I over-stepped in my original post. That said, I consider it common knowledge that the ritual of most NPC orgs is based in Christian scripture. In fact, the ones that aren't generally go out of their way to promote that about themselves.

My main point, however, is that we should celebrate the values of our orgs (and perhaps the common values across orgs) above celebrating a specific block of text or handshake or sequinned leggings or anything else. I'm just not feeling National Ritual Week.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

From a minority person's standpoint, that discomfort is just one more in a long list of discomforts that they're expected to 'deal with' throughout their everyday lives. Newspapers assume the 'standard' person is white and only identify someone by race if the person is non-white. Co-workers assume that everyone's Christian and say a very specifically Christian prayer before a holiday meal. It gets wearing on a person when it's always "them" who is expected to be humble for the whole.

I really don't disagree that ultimately it's worth it for some people, but I don't think it's an issue that can be swept away as humility vs. pride. And I think that her opinions on whether or not ritual is outdated is not because of discomfort but because of the same thing that causes the discomfort, if I'm reading her right. In her description they're both symptoms of the same problem, not one caused by the other.

Again, the inability to talk in specifics makes this a pretty pointless discussion and only enhances my opinion that any sort of concerted effort among GLOs to 'recognize ritual' is fruitless. We should support our ritual - or work from within to change it if we so desire - but we can't really talk about things otherwise.

Understanding the limitations of this topic, I would argue that most GLOs try to be accommodating to this discomfort by generally focusing more on the values based sentiment of Ritual in membership education, resources, publications, etc. As long as we emphasize the values inherent in our rituals we should be able to move on from things that are maybe less inclusive.

It's probably worth saying that I feel my Ritual is very inclusive (a valid argument could be made to call it secular, though I would call it interfaith) so I may not fully understand the breadth of these feelings.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

You are right, I over-stepped in my original post. That said, I consider it common knowledge that the ritual of most NPC orgs is based in Christian scripture. In fact, the ones that aren't generally go out of their way to promote that about themselves.

"Common knowledge" among those who are familiar with that aspect of NPC orgs. It wasn't common knowledge to me until I read your post.

Is it safe to assume that those that aren't based on Christian principles/scripture are the ones that promote that about themselves? You all would know more than I would.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

My main point, however, is that we should celebrate the values of our orgs (and perhaps the common values across orgs) above celebrating a specific block of text or handshake or sequinned leggings or anything else.

Then organize something with your sorority to do so. Some other organizations, mine included, are already doing that at the chapter, regional, and national levels.

Be sure to rock the sequined leggings when you contact your NHQ.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I'm just not feeling National Ritual Week.

Neither am I but none of our opinions really matter. LOL.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Plenty of people have access to GLOs' rituals and don't read them or read them but you would never know because they don't discuss them, even vaguely. I can access rituals for other NPHC orgs but even reading them doesn't mean much beyond the words on the paper. Since there are nonChristian NPHCers, as well as Christian NPHCers who have denounced because they feel that Greekdom is the antiChrist, there is something to be said for what's embedded in "ritual" and beyond the words. I don't know about other GLOs but Delta is to be taken as a whole and not picked a part because someone has read some document (which isn't "secret" because secrets aren't put in print and distributed in paper form).

@ the bolded: I have seen some of those people and WOW are they um... "special."

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

sequinned leggings

WTF WHY ARE YOU RELEASING OUR SECRETS!!!!!!!111!!11!

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Understanding the limitations of this topic, I would argue that most GLOs try to be accommodating to this discomfort by generally focusing more on the values based sentiment of Ritual in membership education, resources, publications, etc. As long as we emphasize the values inherent in our rituals we should be able to move on from things that are maybe less inclusive.

It's probably worth saying that I feel my Ritual is very inclusive (a valid argument could be made to call it secular, though I would call it interfaith) so I may not fully understand the breadth of these feelings.

And it may be that your ritual is indeed fairly inclusive. Many, though not all, of our rituals were written by white protestant women (NPC) so it's not surprising that themes that white protestant women can relate to are prevalent throughout. Additionally, women from outside that specific experience were exposed to the primarily white, protestant culture of universities and would also have understood or used many of the same themes or references.

So... what does it mean? YMMV basically See, it's so fruitless!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

"Common knowledge" among those who are familiar with that aspect of NPC orgs. It wasn't common knowledge to me until I read your post.

It's been discussed on GC before in the vaguest of vague terms. If you put a lot of the posts together you can see a pattern.

Is it safe to assume that those that aren't based on Christian principles/scripture are the ones that promote that about themselves? You all would know more than I would.

Probably to some extent, but not necessarily universally.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

It's been discussed on GC before in the vaguest of vague terms. If you put a lot of the posts together you can see a pattern.

That sounds like the "founded in Christian principles" debates in the NPHC. The very existence of a debate says to me that it's all in the eye of the beholder. If the majority of the membership considers itself Christian, it would be the case that people interpret everything to be Christian-based even when there is no reference to Jesus, Bible Scriptures, etc.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Probably to some extent, but not necessarily universally.

Yeah, so is this another instance of "only speak for your own ritual?" LOL.