Might sound weird, but if I am being completely honest...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yep. It angers me when people think "pledging" and "hazing" are synonymous.

I agree completely. But it did seem to me that the OP really is talking about hazing, not just pledging:

Originally Posted by socalmarci

I would like to have a set of fairly hardcore rituals and exercises specifically geared toward preparing initiates for tough conditions that may arise during their college tenure and early stages of their professional careers, even their personal lives and relationships; all that are fun, stressful, painful, tiring, emotional, embarrassing, motivating, and inspiring. Maybe some people will get hurt, maybe some people will want to drop-out, maybe some people will have emotional breakdowns . . . .

This all sounds to me like a very romanticized and unrealistic view of hazing that focuses on perceived benefits (and proving manhood) and dismisses risks, not to mention legality.

socalmarci, I am old enough to have pledged when concern about hazing was just really starting to be an issue. I was hazed. It was relatively mild as hazing goes -- nothing life threatening or really dangerous (though as others have said, with 18-22 year old guys, it's not too hard for things to get out of hand), and nothing that "scarred" me in any way. But it was definately hazing -- stressful, tiring, emotional . . . .

What did it teach me? Nothing. What did it prepare me for? Nothing. Which may be why, after my pledge class, we just let those hazing traditions fade away, without any intense discussion and without any pressure from our national office. Few brothers saw any point or value in it. As I said above, there are other, more effective ways to accomplish goals of bonding and loyalty.

[winnie_tuck]

There are degrees of hazing. Doing laundry or buying food for members is typically considered hazing but it's just something that happens. I would never have new members suck bananas as I saw on Dateline one night. Also, my bf fraternity made pledges come out in th middle of the night to recite the Greek Alphabet. Most hazing is innocent, but innocence turns bad quickly when you say run across campus naked and now the student has indecency charges on his record. Hell Week is barely politically correct, by that time we were suppose to know all songs, founders, and symbols, and would be called out anytime in middle of the night. For Hell Week, we had to stay in the house which I'm sure if a girl said she didn't want to, would then be called hazing

[*winter*]

Originally Posted by Old_Row

I think you should wait until you are at a university and have a bid in your hand before you try to decide what is right for an organization you will never understand unless you are a part of it.

Word! As for the military comparison: See Above.

Military training is not hazing. It is training people how to act, and react in life or death circumstances. It has to be that damned hard. People in the military bond to each other because they know their lives could depend on each other. You can't recreate that on a college campus. And, finally, no one can sue the military, but people can and have sued the heck out of Greek organizations over hazing. It would bankrupt them.

Sigh. Another "Hazing is a good idea!" "Have you ever been hazed?" "No!" Post

[DubaiSis]

I'm generally not a fan of the slipper slope defense, but in the case of 18-22 year olds, I think it has to be considered. Being made to recite the Greek Alphabet, no, that's not harmful to anyone, but everyone of us here can think of 15 ways to turn that utterly benign act into something terrible, dangerous and/or illegal. Maybe if the rules was, anything you want to do to a pledge has to happen in front of the president of the school, then it would be something. Then a lot of the playful stuff would probably be just fine. But I wouldn't even trust that responsibility to a chapters alumnae/i, because you know some 40 year old wanting to relive his youth would think it's perfectly fine to waterboard a freshman.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I'm generally not a fan of the slipper slope defense, but in the case of 18-22 year olds, I think it has to be considered. Being made to recite the Greek Alphabet, no, that's not harmful to anyone, but everyone of us here can think of 15 ways to turn that utterly benign act into something terrible, dangerous and/or illegal. Maybe if the rules was, anything you want to do to a pledge has to happen in front of the president of the school, then it would be something. Then a lot of the playful stuff would probably be just fine. But I wouldn't even trust that responsibility to a chapters alumnae/i, because you know some 40 year old wanting to relive his youth would think it's perfectly fine to waterboard a freshman.

You can't give people that much control over other people without strong institutional controls. It brings out something dark in them.

I went to college in the late 80's and early 90's. There was quite a bit of hazing on both campuses I attended. (Mostly fraternity) Some of it was harmless and silly. A lot wasn't and I knew one guy that had to go the hospital. The problem was with three types of members: 1) guys who were drunk and didn't have good judgment about what they were doing to the pledges and were belligerent when called on it; 2) guys who were sober but didn't really think through what they were doing to other people (not malicious, just lacking in empathy); and 3) guys who enjoyed hurting the pledges and got off on the petty use of power. The third type was dangerous, more common that I would have thought, and perfectly happy to turn "Hell Week" into a recreation of the Stanford Prison Experiment.

I'm constantly surprised by things that are banned under the rubric of "hazing." I know that if its banned, though, it must have gone bad somewhere. It's like silly laws against ridiculous stuff. If there is a law against keeping a cow in an apartment in a city, it means that some idiot kept a cow in an apartment at some point in that city and the city council had to pass an ordinance to make them stop.

[AGDee]

A lot of things people say are banned because of hazing are actually banned because of risk management. The two mean different things but are lumped together as the same thing in some people's heads, or it gets communicated incorrectly.

[armyguy94]

Hazing? Being a Greek and in the Army(Enlisted when I was 17, pledged last semester) what Greeks and civilians, predominately the Media, call Hazing is just bullying and trying to show they have a little bit of power over someone else and they want to use it while they can. When I rushed Chi Psi, all I had to do was know the Greek Alphabet and a couple of stories from my Fraternity's past, that was it. I think the media has degraded the word Hazing from what it actually means to just some jackass that wants to hold a little power over someone.

I don't know how many other military men/women are on this site, but from my experiences, the Hazing, using the term loosely, I had to go through from Basics, Advanced Infantry Tactics, and even in Afghanistan has scarred me. But what it accomplished was making me able to hold my Rifle and pull the trigger when it counted. Because of my Hazing I was able to survive in a warzone while I watched my military Brothers and Sisters die in the line of duty. I will admit I "hazed" Greenhorns to prepare them for combat, something that I needed to be sure that they wouldn't crack under the pressure and end up dead in a combat zone. And I'm sure when I go back to Afghanistan next week, I'll be "hazed" and I'll "haze" some Greenhorns. But in the Military we don't Haze, we Condition people. -.-

From what I have seen in my Greek life so far, its just High School bullies that never grew up still bullying the pledges. Hazing in its true form is to not build brother/sisterhood, but to take someone and break them down to the point of losing their Identity and Humanity, then rebuild them into something else. There is no point in a Greek Soceity to "haze" someone. There's no logical explanation to it, and no reason for it. /endrant

[madoug]

armyguy94,
thank you for your service.

[pshsx1]

Originally Posted by winnie_tuck

There are degrees of hazing. Doing laundry or buying food for members is typically considered hazing but it's just something that happens.

I don't understand how this keeps coming up. Chapter Presidents don't (read: shouldn't) make the general members do his/her laundry. Why are pledges expected to do it? How does it "just happen"?

What's there to gain from that?

I don't feel like anything in Greek Life, especially when it comes to pledging/new member ed, "just happens." There is rhyme and reason behind every step of it.

[BlueOwl]

Not a popular opinion, I know, but I also think that some level of hazing is acceptable. For women joining sororities I think that dressing up in funny or cute costumes on Big Sis reveal night is FUN!! But for example, at my daughter's school (Big, public in CA) her chapter considers this hazing! I have only heard of two incidents of unforgivable hazing within sororities,,,one occurred at U of Wisconsin and one at University of southern Cal.. For Fraternities for men, EVERY SINGLE man, young or old that I have EVER met experienced some form of hazing!!! Even though every organization proclaims that they don't haze. THEY DO!!! I strongly object to anything that endangers life or limb and or any activity that is humiliating. But, for men joining fraternities, some activities can really help to bond the group. Plus, with men's fraternities, there is that element of having to prove how badly you want to be initiated.

[BlueOwl]

I am now waiting for the onslaught of criticism regarding my post....

go ahead, I am sipping my glass of wine and I am ready!

I stand by my opinion.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by BlueOwl

Not a popular opinion, I know, but I also think that some level of hazing is acceptable. For women joining sororities I think that dressing up in funny or cute costumes on Big Sis reveal night is FUN!! But for example, at my daughter's school (Big, public in CA) her chapter considers this hazing! I have only heard of two incidents of unforgivable hazing within sororities,,,one occurred at U of Wisconsin and one at University of southern Cal.. For Fraternities for men, EVERY SINGLE man, young or old that I have EVER met experienced some form of hazing!!! Even though every organization proclaims that they don't haze. THEY DO!!! I strongly object to anything that endangers life or limb and or any activity that is humiliating. But, for men joining fraternities, some activities can really help to bond the group. Plus, with men's fraternities, there is that element of having to prove how badly you want to be initiated.

I agree that hazing has become the "zero tolerance" of university education. I've been told of events/traditions that are scrapped because "someone" "might" consider them a form of hazing.

However, my spouse was (I believe) hazed unmercifully; he has NO USE for his fraternity. When I mentioned that my nephew was investigating greek life on his campus, and should I let nephew know he has a family connection to that fraternity, spouse said "He doesn't want to be a XYZ." (I finally asked him why he didn't resign, and he implied that was more effort than he was willing to put forth for the fraternity.) When "brotherhood" events cause that reaction, they certainly do nothing to help the cause.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by BlueOwl

Not a popular opinion, I know, but I also think that some level of hazing is acceptable. For women joining sororities I think that dressing up in funny or cute costumes on Big Sis reveal night is FUN!! But for example, at my daughter's school (Big, public in CA) her chapter considers this hazing!

Originally Posted by DGTess

I agree that hazing has become the "zero tolerance" of university education. I've been told of events/traditions that are scrapped because "someone" "might" consider them a form of hazing.

Exactly. The problem is not that some level of hazing is acceptable but nevertheless is prohibited. Hazing is not acceptable. Period.

The problem is that too often some things are labeled as hazing when they really aren't hazing.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Exactly. The problem is not that some level of hazing is acceptable but nevertheless is prohibited. Hazing is not acceptable. Period.

The problem is that too often some things are labeled as hazing when they really aren't hazing.

I feel like this would be a good place to teach collegians some critical thinking skills. "Oh, you want to do X? What's the worst possible thing that could happen if you do X? How might a member or pledge feel if made to do X? What are the benefits of activity X?" and so on...