% of students greek or # of chapters on campus

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

well im biased towards the SEC for obvious reasons because of my UGA and USC connections.

One more time, I'm not arguing that other schools are stronger/better than the SEC, but merely coming up with a way to define strength. Stop trying to turn this into a North/South pissing contest.

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

but if you read my original post, i said its the socials, philanthropy, student gov and group invovlement, and numbers of other things that determine strength. Not the number of chapters or people.

If you read MY original post, I said that quantitative and qualitative factors together determine strength. Do I need to define quantitative and qualitative for you? I was agreeing with you that size alone can not determine a strong Greek community.

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

MIT for example has 50% greek system, can you really expect that to be a very fun, greek environment? I mean thats great that they go to MIT, best tech school in the country hands down... but people don't go to that school to live the greek life you think of... partying and putting so much time into the GLO

When you say "you" do you actually mean yourself, LuckySC, were you addressing me, violetpretty, or did you mean "the Greek life ONE thinks of"? Do you actually know any people that go to Ivies or schools almost as competitive? A lot of them have a "work hard party hard" motto. Do you know anything about Dartmouth's Greek scene?

Maybe you can understand this analogy: I view partying and tradition as the "icing on the cake". The cake is what makes a Greek community strong (read my first post in this thread for that description), and the icing is other perks that some people like but are not a necessary part of how I define strength.

[Lucky SC]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

One more time, I'm not arguing that other schools are stronger/better than the SEC, but merely coming up with a way to define strength. Stop trying to turn this into a North/South pissing contest.

If you read MY original post, I said that quantitative and qualitative factors together determine strength. Do I need to define quantitative and qualitative for you? I was agreeing with you that size alone can not determine a strong Greek community.


When you say "you" do you actually mean yourself, LuckySC, were you addressing me, violetpretty, or did you mean "the Greek life ONE thinks of"? Do you actually know any people that go to Ivies or schools almost as competitive? A lot of them have a "work hard party hard" motto. Do you know anything about Dartmouth's Greek scene?

Maybe you can understand this analogy: I view partying and tradition as the "icing on the cake". The cake is what makes a Greek community strong (read my first post in this thread for that description), and the icing is other perks that some people like but are not a necessary part of how I define strength.

I have friends at both Princeton and Brown, some went greek, the other 2 kids are playing baseball for princeton so they didn't join a GLO.

And to me the most important part of the whole thing is the social aspect, i mean as much as you would like to believe that (for example) a Sigma Chi is going to help out any other Sigma Chi around the country, that just aint gonna happen. You aren't going to hire someone based off of their fraternal background rather then job qualification. I think people put a little bit too much emphasis on the "perks" of going greek. It's overwhelmingly a social thing, you get a lot of driven people in them who do a lot on campus because that is the type of people they attract, driven people will strive for excellence no matter what and sign up for lots of stuff. No matter how strong your greek system is, its not gonna shape out the leaders of America, its kids in college having a good time, class is where that happens.

If anything, GLO's that have a lot of legacy and aren't necessarily as big are more likely to stick together and help eachother get a leg up in the job market, because of how much time they have gotten to known eachother and stuff they have gone through, not because named fraternity was both pinned on them at one time.

and i wasn't making this into a pissing contest for the North or South, Geographically that is where i feel the strongest systems are... theres plenty of schools in the south that i would argue aren't that good. I just think schools overall in the South Eastern Conference have better then average systems.

and i think qualatative has a lot more to do with it then quantative.

[BigRedBeta]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

Basically, a strong greek system means that students are better off and more successful if they join than if they don't


This, I don't agree with. I think you can be successful without being Greek and that nonGreeks are doing just fine on campus without a GLO affiliation.

I'm not arguing that non-greeks can't be successful at a school. I just feel that if you're going to start talking about a strong greek system, there should be positive, tangible, measurable effects for joining. But even then, Greek membership is neither necessary nor sufficient for success.

Perhaps a better way of saying it is that if you go Greek, the likelihood of you being successful is increased.

For example - when Beta looks at GPA's to determine who wins the award for the highest GPA within a district and nationally, they look at the difference between the Chapter's GPA and the All-men's Average NOT the overall Chapter GPA. My chapter at Nebraska has won this award each year for the last 8 despite the fact that our usual 3.45 GPA is eclipsed by a number of schools like MIT and Columbia and other Ivy League schools. However, those chapters, despite their 3.7's or whatever, are BELOW their all-men's average. You could argue, that by joining Beta at those schools, their academics have been affected negatively for whatever reason, rather than Beta having a positive effect on their grades. That's the distinction I'm trying to make. This isn't to say that those guys in the chapter won't be successful in their future, just that they aren't as successful as their non-greek counterparts. It's also not to say joining Beta at Nebraska is a cure-all for the ills of a poor student, or that you have to join a chapter at Nebraska in order to obtain a GPA that's above average, just that on the whole, Greeks are more successful in the classroom than the average student.

[Lucky SC]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

I'm not arguing that non-greeks can't be successful at a school. I just feel that if you're going to start talking about a strong greek system, there should be positive, tangible, measurable effects for joining. But even then, Greek membership is neither necessary nor sufficient for success.

Perhaps a better way of saying it is that if you go Greek, the likelihood of you being successful is increased.

For example - when Beta looks at GPA's to determine who wins the award for the highest GPA within a district and nationally, they look at the difference between the Chapter's GPA and the All-men's Average NOT the overall Chapter GPA. My chapter at Nebraska has won this award each year for the last 8 despite the fact that our usual 3.45 GPA is eclipsed by a number of schools like MIT and Columbia and other Ivy League schools. However, those chapters, despite their 3.7's or whatever, are BELOW their all-men's average. You could argue, that by joining Beta at those schools, their academics have been affected negatively for whatever reason, rather than Beta having a positive effect on their grades. That's the distinction I'm trying to make. This isn't to say that those guys in the chapter won't be successful in their future, just that they aren't as successful as their non-greek counterparts. It's also not to say joining Beta at Nebraska is a cure-all for the ills of a poor student, or that you have to join a chapter at Nebraska in order to obtain a GPA that's above average, just that on the whole, Greeks are more successful in the classroom than the average student.

would you say thats because of the chapter itself though, or it just attracts those kinds of people into rush.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

I have friends at both Princeton and Brown, some went greek, the other 2 kids are playing baseball for princeton so they didn't join a GLO.

And to me the most important part of the whole thing is the social aspect, i mean as much as you would like to believe that (for example) a Sigma Chi is going to help out any other Sigma Chi around the country, that just aint gonna happen. You aren't going to hire someone based off of their fraternal background rather then job qualification. I think people put a little bit too much emphasis on the "perks" of going greek. It's overwhelmingly a social thing, you get a lot of driven people in them who do a lot on campus because that is the type of people they attract, driven people will strive for excellence no matter what and sign up for lots of stuff. No matter how strong your greek system is, its not gonna shape out the leaders of America, its kids in college having a good time, class is where that happens.

If anything, GLO's that have a lot of legacy and aren't necessarily as big are more likely to stick together and help eachother get a leg up in the job market, because of how much time they have gotten to known eachother and stuff they have gone through, not because named fraternity was both pinned on them at one time.

and i wasn't making this into a pissing contest for the North or South, Geographically that is where i feel the strongest systems are... theres plenty of schools in the south that i would argue aren't that good. I just think schools overall in the South Eastern Conference have better then average systems.

and i think qualatative has a lot more to do with it then quantative.

Hey, Lucky, I've usually enjoyed your posts, but I have to say, for someone who's basically only been on the periphery of the greek system so far, you're talking out of your a$$ throughout most of this post.

[Lucky SC]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Hey, Lucky, I've usually enjoyed your posts, but I have to say, for someone who's basically only been on the periphery of the greek system so far, you're talking out of your a$$ throughout most of this post.

maybe i'm not getting my wording right, and i'm not trying to bash anyone else's greeks AT ALL.

But basically in short after all the tangents i know i have gone off on, I think that simply because 80% of your school does it, doesn't make it any stronger.

theres my point i guess.
i can see where some of what i'm saying would be interpreted as offensive, so this probably isn't going anywhere.
I resign from this thread lol

[nittanyalum]

No, not offensive, just misinformed.

[PhiGam]

16% and 30+ chapters on campus.

[Lucky SC]

Originally Posted by Zeta13Girl

I think to me the strength of a greek organization has a little bit of both.


It has several chapters on campus. (meaning new chapters that come to campus are welcomed and thrive and don't die off)

Most chapters are at total which would be like 65 or 75 people. (there are enough people involved that the greek life is thriving on campus, but it hasn't become something that "everyone joins" i.e. it still feels something special when you get a bid to a chapter compared to half of the freshmen on campus joining... the specialness(sp) feeling kinda disappears for me.)

Other important factors:
intergreek relations - do people for the most part get along with everyone
scholastics
community service/philanthropy
...probably some other things too my brain just blanked out.

__________________________________________________ ___________

As for the whether I would rather join a school with fewer chapters and larger #s of members or more chapters and smaller #s of members. I would have to say that I would go with more chapters less members, which is actually what I joined into.

I like the opportunity of there being several chapters to choose from. If I only had 5 I would find it hard because I know on my campus every sorority is different personality and everything and I dont think if I had to I would be able to successfully condense our 11 chapters down to 5 without them falling apart.

I would probably be extremely intimidated by going to a chapter for rush that had more than 75 sisters. I also feel as though I wouldn't be able to be as close with sorority sisters in a chapter that has over a 100 members than a smaller one. Then I would feel as though I'm a bad sister. It would seem almost impossible to enjoy a movie night as a whole chapter. Whereas when my chapter has a movie night it really feels like a family gathering.

My ideal chapter size would be 65-75 sisters (this is for me only; I'm not trying to say that large chapters are bad I just don't think personally I would fit into a large chapter)

yea at mixers there will be like 75-100ish guys (some older guys don't show up to all of them) in then theres like 200-300 girls from said sorority, works out quite nice for the guys lol.

our system is more like the 8 big ones type of thing.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by ta kala

I have to disagree a little bit here. My experience with schools like W&L with such high percentage of Greeks is that many of the women go Greek because that's what you do - not because of the benefits it can bring you. When talking with them, it's hard for them to see the leadership opportunities and other things that will make them better people post grad. So while they are a strong system, with lots of people, I think you can't just look at percentage and growth.

And what exactly is your experience with W&L Panhellenic? Or do you just know about schools like W&L?

ETA: OK - I just searched and I see that you're a consultant for KD who's visited W&L. That's cool. I was a finalist for a consultant position with Pi Phi back in the day. I'll say one thing as someone with presumably way more experience (4 years of it) with W&L Panhellenic than you: please don't judge all of W&L Panhellenic attitudes based on your interactions with the KD chapter. Thanks.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I'll give another example that all of our fratty posters can agree with. Washington & Lee. Their Panhellenic community is only around 20 years old, but their Panhellenic is not weak by any means. They have a reasonable number of chapters, incredible percentage of Greeks, they are growing, they are chapters well-regarded by their HQs and the University. They (meaning Panhellenic chapters) do not have the age and "tradition", but W&L is almost always mentioned whenever the fratties talk about strong Greek schools. W&L has more "tradition" on the IFC side, but does the lack of Panhellenic tradition weaken the Panhellenic strength? No way! Is W&L Panhellenic only strong because of the IFC tradition and not because of their own merits? Absolutely not.

Well, I think the major reason W&L gets respect from "fratties" is the IFC, not Panhel. But yeah. I find it pretty hard to argue that W&L isn't one of the strongest if not the strongest Greek systems in the nation. Although the counterargument would be that the fraternities are plagued by risk management issues and generally don't care about what their nationals want (of course, that would only make them "stronger" in the eyes of some).

W&L Panhellenic is amazing because it's such a large system (percentage-wise), and because the chapters are generally pretty successful at winning awards, recruiting great membership, etc.

The recent addition of NPHC chapters to W&L has actually upped Greek percentage even further.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

People go to schools like Alabama and go greek not because of the education at that school, but because generations and generations have, most of the people have been bred that they will do the same thing from a child.

Animals are bred. People are reared.

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

And to me the most important part of the whole thing is the social aspect, i mean as much as you would like to believe that (for example) a Sigma Chi is going to help out any other Sigma Chi around the country, that just aint gonna happen. You aren't going to hire someone based off of their fraternal background rather then job qualification. I think people put a little bit too much emphasis on the "perks" of going greek. It's overwhelmingly a social thing, you get a lot of driven people in them who do a lot on campus because that is the type of people they attract, driven people will strive for excellence no matter what and sign up for lots of stuff. No matter how strong your greek system is, its not gonna shape out the leaders of America, its kids in college having a good time, class is where that happens.

What personal experience has helped you to arrive at this opinion?

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Hey, Lucky, I've usually enjoyed your posts, but I have to say, for someone who's basically only been on the periphery of the greek system so far, you're talking out of your a$$ throughout most of this post.

No kidding.