High school hazing on The Early Show

[momoftwo]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
[B
Final note to momoftwo: I believe that in one of your first posts after your "lurking" career that you said you were concerned about your young adults pledging when you hear and read so much about hazing, etc. May I suggest that, given some of what has been said here, you carefully study the Greek System at the college your children attend, then look closely at the national and specific chapter they are considering before making a "global" decision?

While, in many cases, I am a defender of the media because I've spent a long time as part of it, it is very easy to make incorrect assumptions about a large group of people based on the mistakes of a few of them.

Best of luck in your decisions. [/B]

Make no mistake, my daughter is her own person and will be solely responsible for deciding if Greek Life is for her or not. She's got good judgement, she'll make the right choice for her. I think of myself as her coach, and come here to educate myself as to the issues that are out there and the questions she should be asking herself, and others, as she considers this important commitment. That's the one bright spot in the emptying of the nest...they're her decisions to make now, not mine! [wink]

Although my tax dollars are being spent to fund the legal and PR fallout from this event, I really don't begrudge the media for making it the big deal it has become. (I have family in the print media so I understand that reporters have jobs to do.) The hazing was wrong, it should stop. Even if its all in good fun, the potential is there for these things to escalate out of control, like this one did.

I blame the Senior girls and their parents who act like they are the victims here. I think that if in early May there weren't girls quoted saying things like "what's the big deal, its not like we killed them" but instead said "I am so sorry, I can't believe I would do such a thing," and sucked up whatever punishment their parents, the school and/or the courts handed out, this would have faded quickly. Instead they supported the stereotypes of privileged girls who aren't held accountable for their actions. And continue to create news...

[AXJules]

I totally agree that that happens all the time... but what I was saying was that for all they said about a "just" punishment....there should have been varying degrees. The animals didn't get enough punishment, and a few of the girls shouldn't have been expelled.

It's a little ironic to me that the ones who got lawyers (the "most spoiled", if you will), did not accept the expulsion.

[momoftwo]

Originally posted by AXJules
I totally agree that that happens all the time... but what I was saying was that for all they said about a "just" punishment....there should have been varying degrees. The animals didn't get enough punishment, and a few of the girls shouldn't have been expelled.

It's a little ironic to me that the ones who got lawyers (the "most spoiled", if you will), did not accept the expulsion.

Don't forget the animals still have their day in court. They face as much as a year in jail.

My understanding is the amount of community service required is based upon the severity of the actions seen on the tape. Some girls have 10 hours, others have 60. What I've heard is that the school just wanted the Seniors out of the building to protect the juniors from further harassment. Again, the Seniors acting like victims are said to be blaming the juniors for "telling". Given the number of school days left, expulsion was the only way to keep them off the property. What a year to make graduation later than it has been in the past!

[sugar and spice]

Tangent!

Originally posted by DeltAlum

The list(s) are great morale builders for the schools involved -- but what about the other really good high schools that don't make the list? It is said -- with no documentation that I've seen -- the the school system we live in is "one of the top ten in the nation." And, in fact, two of the five (soon to be six) high schools in the district were on "the list." But, frankly, there is very little difference between the five schools. What this kind of thing does do, though, is give certain of the students at the other three schools a real complex of not measuring up. Which makes the motivated work harder, and the less motivated to give up -- leaving those in the middle not knowing or not caring what to do.

And one school in the Denver district, which is generally believed to be the second best school in the state didn't make the list at all -- while several other schools from other districts did.

I agree. I'm sorry, but judging by AP/IB scores alone -- like this list does -- is not going to give an accurate impression of how good a school is. I looked through the list for schools that I'm familiar with (mostly those in Wisconsin/Minnesota). The highest listed Wisconsin school on the list would, by almost anyone's standards, not be considered the best public high school in Wisconsin. Some of the others listed are very good schools; others are just mediocre. Out of the four public high schools in my city, one was listed, despite the fact that most people in Madison agree that that school is second to another one of the public high schools.

There's really no rhyme or reason to this list, and in order to effectively measure how good a high school is you'd have to measure far more than AP scores. And then of course, there are the intangibles that can't be measured in test scores, GPAs or number of football championships won.

[IowaHawkeye]

Originally posted by AXJules
I never said that I worked for Newsweek and knew in advance what the rankings would be for this year. We have been within the top ten for over 30 years, consistently, so if you want to do it mathmatically it would be fair to say that is where the school HAS ranked. I'm sorry if this wasn't statistically up to your standards.

The other link was posted, we can all check it and see where the school ranks. Don't flatter yourself in thinking you "proved me wrong" in something I never claimed. I'm sorry, I really don't understand where the attitude is coming from. Adding a smiley face wearing some sunglasses doesn't cover up the way you post something.

Wow... hostility.... might want to lighten up a little.

Going from 3rd (or whatever GBN was before) to 342nd.... wow what happened? It kinda proves how ridiculous these rankings.

I'm from chicago - there are girls in my sorority and at my school who went to GBN - I've never been overly impressed with the school. New Trier, Stevenson, though, have impressed me.

I never once said i "proved you wrong" nor have i ever cared about "proving you wrong"- i'm not even the original one who posted the link to the story and msnbc - all i did was post a DIRECT link to the listings so people wouldn't have to click through msnbc to get to newsweek to get to the story to get to the listings.

High school is over... you don't need to be so defensive over it.

[AXJules]

Where to begin.....
#1) I would not consider this a light thread. It involves my friends, my hometown, and my life, so I don't really see a need to "lighten up". Also, considering all of the shit I've gotten from several people on here through PM's or whatever, I would give myself a fat pat on the back for being at about the same level of seriousness whatever as everyone else posting in here.

#2) Obviously you didn't say that you proved me wrong- otherwise I would have quoted it. But you have posted more than a few times in this thread and its not difficult to pick up on whatever superiority you feel you need to add. You're right, high school is over. But, b/c I live here, have many friends that are still there, and want to send my kids there, it is a part of my life. I am defensive b/c I've sat through catty comments of yours and I guess I just got sick of it. From a mod I guess I would have expected better.

#3) This is totally irrelevant, but that's fabulous that New Trier and Stevenson impress you. I know where you're from, so whatever you know about the schools would have to be from word of mouth by your sisters or something...but you are more than entitled to your opinion. I have pride for GBN but I would never fight with my friends that go to New Trier over it b/c you know what? We're practically the same school ...either way I don't see why else you would include your "nonimpressiveness' with GBN unless it were a jab at me. And you wonder why I'd be defensive....

[starang21]

Originally posted by AXJules
Where to begin.....
#1) I would not consider this a light thread. It involves my friends, my hometown, and my life, so I don't really see a need to "lighten up". Also, considering all of the shit I've gotten from several people on here through PM's or whatever, I would give myself a fat pat on the back for being at about the same level of seriousness whatever as everyone else posting in here.

#2) Obviously you didn't say that you proved me wrong- otherwise I would have quoted it. But you have posted more than a few times in this thread and its not difficult to pick up on whatever superiority you feel you need to add. You're right, high school is over. But, b/c I live here, have many friends that are still there, and want to send my kids there, it is a part of my life. I am defensive b/c I've sat through catty comments of yours and I guess I just got sick of it. From a mod I guess I would have expected better.

#3) This is totally irrelevant, but that's fabulous that New Trier and Stevenson impress you. I know where you're from, so whatever you know about the schools would have to be from word of mouth by your sisters or something...but you are more than entitled to your opinion. I have pride for GBN but I would never fight with my friends that go to New Trier over it b/c you know what? We're practically the same school ...either way I don't see why else you would include your "nonimpressiveness' with GBN unless it were a jab at me. And you wonder why I'd be defensive....

people actually get impressed at what high school you went to?

[momoftwo]

From this week's Northbrook Star. This story gives the most detailed explanation of what the school is doing about the Seniors that I have seen.

31 GBN seniors expelled

But terms of each expulsion were invidivually crafted, officials say

BY SARA LOEB
STAFF WRITER

They're likely to still get their diplomas, but 31 Glenbrook North High School seniors won't be walking across the stage in the Center for Performing Arts June 8 to claim them.

By a 5-0 vote, the Glenbrook High School Board early Monday morning expelled the 28 senior girls and 3 senior boys members believe participated in the May 4 hazing in Chipilly Woods

But the punishment for expulsion varies from student to student. School officials Tuesday declined to say why or by how much, but Board President Carol Rogal's Monday stated that the board had looked at each case individually.

Board members Tom Shaer and Keith Babb recused themselves from the early Monday morning vote, which came after the board deliberated for more than nine hours in closed session.

All but three of the disciplined seniors accepted a waiver agreement that will freeze their grades at pre-suspension levels, and could allow them to receive their diplomas on time, officials acknowledged.

In return the students have promised not to sue the school district and not to sign book or movie deals relating to the hazing incident.

Citing a policy of confidentiality pertaining to disciplinary matters, Superintendent David Hales declined to "go into the details of (punishment for) the three students" who did not sign the waiver agreement early this week.

Barry A. Spector, an attorney representing one of those students, said his client declined because the agreement "was unfair and exposed her to certain liabilities."

Spector said a clause in the agreement offered his client "could be interpreted to require her to idemnify the school in certain situations," meaning his client could have to pay the school's legal fees or take sole responsibility for the incident in a possible lawsuit by a third party, such as juniors injured in the hazing.

He also said his client's version of the waiver required her to perform 100 hours of community service, and get 10 hours of counseling. "If they were more concerned about not having it happen again," he said of the hazing, "they'd reverse those" hour numbers.

A majority of the students probably agreed to the waiver because they want to receive a Glenbrook North diploma in a timely manner, Spector said, but he believes the agreement, at least in the his client's case, "gives no assurance she would ever get a diploma," because of the various attached conditions.

All of the expelled seniors will be able to complete graduation requirements at approved alternative or on-line schools, Hales said Monday, adding that most already had earned enough credits to graduate.

Those students who have not yet passed the state-mandated Consumer Education course will be able to take a review course and the state-mandated test at Glenbrook South, Hales said.

They are barred from Glenbrook North school grounds for a year, unless administrators give them permission to clean out their lockers or pick up academic transcripts, and they can't participate in the school's June 8 graduation or any related school-sponsored activities, under terms of each of the agreements, Hales said.

To graduate, the disciplined students will have to serve "varying hours" of community service, and submit to varying numbers of hours of counseling, Hales said. Each also has to "participate in educational and individual counseling as determined by the board," Hales said. He declined to elaborate.

Although Glenbrook North administrators originally recommended 32 seniors for expulsion, they said they learned last week that one of the 32 had been "misidentified," and did not participate in the hazing. He was called back into school and allowed to make up any missed work for full credit, district spokeswoman Diane Freeman said.

In a statement read to the board May 11, Board member Keith Babb said he wouldn't participate in disciplinary proceedings against the hazing participants because "I know several of the kids who were spectators at the event ... and I believe I cannot be totally objective."

Pioneer Press reported May 8 that Babb's son Nick said he had watched the hazing.

Board member Tom Shaer also recused himself Sunday afternoon because he's given the district advice on "media matters" and been an "outspoken supporter of the work of the schools."

Although Shaer emphasized that he was "unbiased and had made no comments or formed any opinions on individual cases," Shaer said he wanted to avoid "any question of perceived partiality."

[momoftwo]

Juniors face suspension if they don't sign pledge

BY SARA LOEB
STAFF WRITER

Glenbrook North High School has "taken action" to suspend 20 juniors involved in the May 4 hazing incident, but school officials say students who agree to certain school-dictated terms can continue to attend classes. Superintendent Dave Hales says the district wants the students to agree to counseling, agree not to profit commercially from the incident, and promise never to attend another hazing.

"The emphasis the school is trying to provide is that this was not appropriate (behavior), and to provide counseling and support for them," Hales said Tuesday.

The district is still "working with students and their parents" and cannot reveal how many students have agreed to the terms that will prevent their suspensions, spokeswoman Diane Freeman said Tuesday.

Fifteen or 16 juniors have indicated they will agree to the district's terms, a source with direct knowledge of talks between the school and some parents of junior students said Tuesday.

In a statement released Friday, Glenbrook North Principal Mike Riggle said the administration acted because some juniors had violated the Illinois School Code policy that prohibits students from participating in secret societies.

"Our goal in all of our actions, disciplinary and otherwise, is that GBN students never again participate in any type of hazing, embarrassing, or harassing activities," Riggle's statement said.

Hales said the state school code requires school officials to either suspend or expel students who participate in secret societies. He said the juniors were being considered for suspension rather than expulsion because "they knowingly participated in this activity, but while I believe they knew there'd be hazing, I don't believe they felt it would be what occurred, as such." He added that what occurred was "quite a bit of suffering."

Rollin Soskin, attorney for three of the juniors who sought medical treatment after the May 4 melee, this week said he'll contest disciplinary action for his clients. In a press release issued Tuesday afternoon, Soskin argued the powder puff hazing was not the kind of incident targeted by the Illinois School Code article that prohibits public school fraternities, sororities or secret societies.

Soskin also stated that his clients are confused about when they might be suspended if they don't agree to sign the agreement the district is offering. And he said he wrote Hales Tuesday that his clients weren't sure whether they should have attended classes Tuesday, because they weren't sure if they had been suspended May 16, when they were told by school officials that they would not be allowed to attend the following evening's prom, or other extra-curricular events that weekend.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by starang21
people actually get impressed at what high school you went to?

Yea I was kind of thinking the same thing. Maybe I just don't get it because I went to a public high school. (although in my hometown's area, my high school was a force to be reckoned with )

I think it's pretty safe for me to say that I would have to agree with IowaHawkeye. What happened in high school is over, and there isn't a really huge reason to be overly defensive about it. I can understand that AXJules still lives there.. has friends there, and wants to send her future kids to GBN, but at the same time I just don't see a need to be so upset about something that has already happened and no one can go back & change. Sometimes, things just happen, but I like to think everything has happened for a reason. Now that those girls were caught hopefully this terrible tradition won't go on anymore...

on a sidenote - about the punishment the girls recieved, I personally think it is a bunch of crap that they got to graduate with whatever grades they had and not have to take finals. That is more of a reward than anything.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by starang21
people actually get impressed at what high school you went to?

It happens...my HS was strong in academics and was also an athletics powerhouse in everything from football to swimming to golf to field hockey (only public school in the state with a team). When I went to college and people asked where I was from, they definitely knew where I was talking about. However, it was usually followed by "So are you rich?"

[starang21]

Originally posted by texas*princess
Yea I was kind of thinking the same thing. Maybe I just don't get it because I went to a public high school. (although in my hometown's area, my high school was a force to be reckoned with )

I think it's pretty safe for me to say that I would have to agree with IowaHawkeye. What happened in high school is over, and there isn't a really huge reason to be overly defensive about it. I can understand that AXJules still lives there.. has friends there, and wants to send her future kids to GBN, but at the same time I just don't see a need to be so upset about something that has already happened and no one can go back & change. Sometimes, things just happen, but I like to think everything has happened for a reason. Now that those girls were caught hopefully this terrible tradition won't go on anymore...

my thing is that we have a ton of kids that come to Purdue and try to go thru the engineering program up there from those affluent chicago suburb schools. a lot of those kids are also the ones who fail out of engineering and make up the almost 70% (don't quote me, that's something i heard during freshman year) that don't make out of the first year of classes. then you have me, who went to 2 high schools, the last of which was a vocational joint in which only about 30% (senior project) went to a 4 year college. oh yea, i also have a BSCE and MSCE from purdue and have a several job offers. not to be on my own nuts, but, people will never gave you a job for you being in NHS.

[adduncan]

Originally posted by starang21
not to be on my own nuts, but, people will never gave you a job for you being in NHS.

You're absolutely correct, your HS will not get your foot in the door for a job or a career.

But it still has other financial effects.

The reputation of a high school will have a big part in determining the home and property values of an area. If the HS sucks, people will stay away in droves, and property values drop. The reverse is true if the HS has a good rep.

So when the day comes that you are looking for a place to live and want to factor in education for your children, and what you can afford to buy, the HS reputation becomes very important.

</hijack>
Adrienne (PNAM-2003 and wife of Purdue alum )

[momoftwo]

This was in today's Chicago Tribune. It appears that the federal court believes the school does have the authority to take action. (This was the girl who appeared on Good Morning America who did not understand what it meant to be remorseful.)

Glenbrook hazing plaintiff loses in court
By Matt O’Connor
Tribune staff reporter
Published May 29, 2003, 1:08 PM CDT

Advising the plaintiff should just get on with her life, a federal judge today denied a request by a Glenbrook North High School student that the court block her expulsion over a recent hazing.

"We all make mistakes. Kids do stupid things. The sooner you can get over that, the better," U.S. District Chief Judge Charles Kocoras said.

Kocoras denied a request for a temporary restraining order in the suit by Liat Gendelman, one of 31 seniors recently suspended and expelled by Northfield Township High School District 225.

After court, Gendelman's attorney, Dolores Ayala, said she and her client would "respect Judge Kocoras' opinion." Ayala indicated Gendelman would withdraw her suit and sign an agreement with the school district accepting her punishment in exchange for receiving her diploma.

Under the agreement, the student's grades would be frozen as they were before her suspension, and she would undergo three hours of counseling and perform 10 hours of community service, officials said.

Ayala said another Glenbrook North senior she was representing, Taylor Wessel, last week signed a similar agreement with the school district.

Previously, Ayala had argued her clients had been suspended without due process, and that Glenbrook North officials did not have the authority to discipline them for an activity not sponsored by or held at the school.

A total of 31 seniors have been expelled because of their role in the May 4 hazing, which sent five junior girls to the hospital. Senior girls were caught on videotape punching, kicking and dumping filth on the juniors.

Also, 20 juniors face 10-day suspensions unless they sign waivers agreeing to counseling and not attempting to gain commercially from their experience. Five seniors went to court to contest their punishments. To date, all have been unsuccessful in their attempts to obtain restraining orders blocking their suspensions and expulsions.

Additionally, Cook County prosecutors last week charged 16 seniors and two parents for their alleged roles in the hazing.
Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by momoftwo
Under the agreement, the student's grades would be frozen as they were before her suspension, and she would undergo three hours of counseling and perform 10 hours of community service, officials said.

She got off easy.. why was she all upset & suing? It's not like they gave her 60 hours of community service

momoftwo, thank you for keeping us updated!

random question that maybe someone can answer: Since this terrible event took place off campus grounds, could the local law enforcement of that area present these girls with charges? I'm not sure if that is possible?

I'm sure that would be a LOT worse than getting your grades frozen, having THREE hours of counciling and only 10 hours of community service... so I just really don't understand why these girls are suing it could be worse.