Is Gay marriage necessary today or immoral?

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by AXEAM
PJ

I think Lovespell has a point you may need to take inventory of yourself (defending the gay lifestle) and your christian beliefs...the two just don't seem to jive.

Again, I am 100% opposed to the gay lifestyle but I am 100% in favor of a person's right to choose between right and wrong AND a person's rights as a human being.

[AXEAM]

PJ

It seems to be a little more then that.... you defend the gay lifestyle a liitle too much....

[Marie]

#1. PJ is probably being more Christ-like than most others on this board. While she states that she has her own opinion about the issues, she also encourages others to choose for themselves. It has always been my understanding that Free Will is a major gift that God has granted to human beings. While it hurts him to see his children sin, he still gives them the right to choose for themselves. So I don't really understand why her Christianity is being attacked. She's not gay. She's only saying, "let gays live their life how they choose to, and then let them work it out with God at the end". To me that sounds very similar to what God has already ordained for his children.

#2. Love_Spell, I think that you're kinda flaking out at the end here. You've made some very strong statements in this discussion, which you say are backed by God's Word. However, when you're questioned for further explanation, then you "throw your hands up" like "I'm only repeating the Bible". Well, infact you're saying a little bit more than what the Bible says. You've talked about how gays are causing America to stray away from it's moral core (althouh the US was founded on slavery, rape, murder, lies, and hatred), you've also talked about a direct link btwn homosexuality, beastiality, pedophilia, and polygamy (which while the Bible does say that they are all abominations, it is not clear that one causes the other), and you've talked about it being OK to deny gay rights because this nations is a democracy and most people here disagree with gay marriage (when we all know that the majority of people do not support equal rights for minorities, yet we still are granted them). I think PJ has a legitimate question when she says, "If you say that marriage is an institution ordained by God, then what are those "married" couples who are atheist or Non-Christian engaging in?" Can it really be the same institution? I don't know, and it's OK if you don't know. However, to question someone else's Christianity because they asked you a question that you can't answer is not fair.

#3. Everyone here has and does sin. Many people on this board are having sex outside of marriage, lying, thinking negative thoughts about others, having sexual thoughts about others, stealing (from the Church, the govt., or others) and most commonly (at least on this board) judging others. So to condemn someone else because of their choices, is hypocritical at best.

Now I say this, because there was a comment about the "anti-gay marriage advocates" on this board having a vendetta or being hateful. I think that may be the perception because some of the replys do not simply attack the person's arguments, but rather they seem to attack the person themelves. Some of the replys seem to be making JUDGEMENTS about the people who posted, rather than targeting the merit of their comment or post. (Not all just some.) I know many will say that they aren't judging anyone, however, I'm not certain that this is the truth when you read the SPIRIT of some of the replys.

I guess, I just don't understand how one can take a Christ-like stance, when the nature of the way that they are taking this stance is unChrist-like.

Last piece, I promise. If you want to reply that's cool. However, if you do so please reply to the spirit and the merit of my comments. I really hate it when you make an argument w/5 good points, and then someone refutes just 1 point as if that makes the entire argument null.

JMHO,
Marie

[AXEAM]

Say what you will.....but I can't think of one verse in the bible when Jesus did not tell people to turn away from sin. I haven't read that verse when Jesus said god disagrees w/what you doing but go ahead b/c God gave you free will.



PS: If you think people on here are being hard try reading the bible and read what Jesus had to say about those who made a mockery of God's word.

[MaMaBuddha]

Originally posted by AXEAM
Say what you will.....but I can't think of one verse in the bible when Jesus did not tell people to turn away from sin. I haven't read that verse when Jesus said god disagrees w/what you doing but go ahead b/c God gave you free will.



PS: If you think people on here are being hard try reading the bible and read what Jesus had to say about those who made a mockery of God's word.

talk about missing the whole point of the post.

[AXEAM]

This seems to be the age of all things wicked kinda like in the days of Noah when everything was o.k as long as the people doing them were happy. I was some what amazed that public officials who were swore in to unhold the law quicky broke it and performed these gay marriages.I wonder what would happen if all areas of society just broke the law like that.....image w/ so many people being unemployed that the unemployed got fed up and bumrushed the banks and other financial companys and just took the money that they so badly needed ...or people fed up w/paying high taxes just said screw it we're not paying these taxes anymore .... and so forth.

[Lord MJ]

The point about not letting religious convictions influencing political decisions.

Many people are of the persuasion that the bible says this action is a sin, therefore it should be made illegal.

This is a violation of people's individual rights because nobody should be forced to obey Christian values.

Part of living in a free society is the fact that one group with a set of beliefs must learn to tolerate the behavior of another group with a different set of beliefs regardless of whether that behavior is in line with group # 1's set of beliefs.

I'm a Christian, but because of what I just mentioned above I could never support banning Gay marriage. In fact if it were banned, I would advocate Gays actively ignoring the bans.

[SummerChild]

Originally posted by Lord MJ
The point about not letting religious convictions influencing political decisions.

Many people are of the persuasion that the bible says this action is a sin, therefore it should be made illegal.

This is a violation of people's individual rights because nobody should be forced to obey Christian values.

Part of living in a free society is the fact that one group with a set of beliefs must learn to tolerate the behavior of another group with a different set of beliefs regardless of whether that behavior is in line with group # 1's set of beliefs.

I'm a Christian, but because of what I just mentioned above I could never support banning Gay marriage. In fact if it were banned, I would advocate Gays actively ignoring the bans.

MJ, the law is only indirectly following religious viewpoints and this is why it is permissible - b/c judges can consider policy in creating case law and policy is often founded on morality; morality is largely dictated by the major religion in any area. I explain this in my previous email. So when the law is saying that gay marriage should not be allowed, it is partly based on moral policy - not religious beliefs (although they are closely related). This is why I said that there is no true separation of religion and law - however, law is not a *direct* reflection of any religion's tenet; it's more indirect.

Further, anti-homosexuality tenets (I believe) are found in other religions as well (not just Christian sources) so, again, the law could not really adopt the Christian way of life if it wanted to b/c there are a number of other major religions in this country whose advocates would see to it that Christians are not getting a strong hold on the law, to the exclusion of their respective religion.

So you don't have to disagree with bans on gay marriages just b/c you think that it's a result of Christian influence in the law b/c it isn't directly and could never be.

SC

[rho4life]

I guess the GC peeps are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. When one person spoke up and defend gay people's rights to be equal with heterosexuals, she was attacked, and her religion and sexuality quesitoned.

While the struggles that ethnic minorities and homosexuals face are DIFFERENT, one is not better or worse. Discrimination is never good.

All humans should be able to love who they want without fear of persecution. This country was founded on ideas of religious freedom. Let's not forget that. Regardless of your personal life, think about whether or not we should ammend the US Constitution to RESTRICT rights.

Women in particular, consider whether or not you want the government to restrict your legal rights any further.

As of the writing of this message, CA has stopped Gay marriages. Thankfully some couples I know were able to affirm their commitment to each other recently. Hopefully, the courts will recognize their relationships, and allow them to share in all the rights and obligations associated with marriage.

Peace y'all!

[Sistermadly]

Pitts is one of my favorite columnists -- who happens to be African American. I'm happy to see one of "us" come out so strongly in calling us out on our own bigotry...


LEONARD PITTS

For release 03/12/04

'CIVIL' WAR BETWEEN GAYS AND BLACKS

By Leonard Pitts Jr.

Tribune Media Services

Call it an object lesson in the quality of equality.

I refer to last week's Senate subcommittee hearing on the proposed constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage. And specifically, to an exchange between two leaders of the black community.

The first, Hilary Shelton, director of the Washington bureau of the NAACP, argued that the amendment "would use the Constitution to discriminate." Which brought a sharp retort from the Rev. Richard Richardson, chairman of political affairs for the Black Ministerial Alliance of Greater Boston Inc. Defining marriage as the union of a woman and a man, he said, "is not discrimination. And I find it offensive to call it that."

If you polled black folk, Richardson's view would doubtless prove typical. Though it's not generally appreciated by the wider world, blacks are among the most socially conservative Americans there are. Particularly on gay issues. Indeed, if you want to start a fight, suggest to a group of black folk that there are parallels between the civil rights movement and the gay community's struggle for equality.

Even blacks who are sympathetic to the gay cause often bristle at the comparison. As the Rev. Jesse Jackson recently put it, "Gays were never called three-fifths' human in the Constitution."

Those who are not sympathetic are even harsher. Gene Rivers, a Boston minister, accuses gays of "pimping" the civil rights movement.

Granted, the comparison between the black struggle and the gay one is inexact. But here's the thing: Every freedom movement from Poland's labor uprising to America's feminism to China's Tiananmen Square protests has been compared to the civil rights movement. When Czechoslovakians threw off communist rule in 1989, they sang "We Shall Overcome." Yet no one bothered to point out that the Czechs were never slighted in the U.S. Constitution, much less to accuse Poles of "pimping" the civil rights movement. What's that tell you?

It tells me this stinginess about the movement only arises when gays seek to embrace it. And that black people - some of us, at least - ought to be ashamed.

How can we of all people, we who know the weight of American oppression better than almost anyone, stand in the path of those who seek simple equality? How can we support writing anyone out of the Constitution when it took us so long to be written in?

And how can we stand with the very people - social conservatives - who not so long ago didn't want us in their churches, their schools, their parks or their restaurants? Yet more and more, we act and sound just like them.

We use our Bibles to justify our bigotry, just as they did.

We describe equality as unnatural, just as they did.

We invoke the sanctity of tradition, just as they did.

And we are wrong, just as they were.

Worse, we have wrapped our community in a conspiracy of silence, made being homosexual something one simply does not discuss. So that if you are black and gay or black and lesbian, there is often no sane thought of "coming out," no safe place to be who you are. The black community has no resources for you, no tolerance of you, no compassion for you. Yes, there are exceptions, but not enough. Not nearly.

Is it any surprise, then, that blacks lead the nation in new cases of HIV and AIDS?

Too many of us fail - or refuse - to see the great generality that overarches the specificity of our struggles. Meaning that it doesn't matter whether you are gay or black or woman or Jew or even Czech: people have a right to be free.

This is the principle gay people are fighting to vindicate. And no, it isn't the civil rights movement, but make no mistake: it's definitely "a" civil rights movement.

Except that this time, black people are on the other side.

(Leonard Pitts is a columnist for the Miami Herald, 1 Herald Plaza, Miami, Fla., 33132. Readers may contact him at (888) 251-4407 or via e-mail at lpitts@herald.com.)

© 2004, The Miami Herald

Distributed by Tribune Media Services, Inc.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by Marie
#1. PJ is probably being more Christ-like than most others on this board. While she states that she has her own opinion about the issues, she also encourages others to choose for themselves. It has always been my understanding that Free Will is a major gift that God has granted to human beings. While it hurts him to see his children sin, he still gives them the right to choose for themselves. So I don't really understand why her Christianity is being attacked. She's not gay. She's only saying, "let gays live their life how they choose to, and then let them work it out with God at the end". To me that sounds very similar to what God has already ordained for his children.

#2. Love_Spell, I think that you're kinda flaking out at the end here. You've made some very strong statements in this discussion, which you say are backed by God's Word. However, when you're questioned for further explanation, then you "throw your hands up" like "I'm only repeating the Bible". Well, infact you're saying a little bit more than what the Bible says. You've talked about how gays are causing America to stray away from it's moral core (althouh the US was founded on slavery, rape, murder, lies, and hatred), you've also talked about a direct link btwn homosexuality, beastiality, pedophilia, and polygamy (which while the Bible does say that they are all abominations, it is not clear that one causes the other), and you've talked about it being OK to deny gay rights because this nations is a democracy and most people here disagree with gay marriage (when we all know that the majority of people do not support equal rights for minorities, yet we still are granted them). I think PJ has a legitimate question when she says, "If you say that marriage is an institution ordained by God, then what are those "married" couples who are atheist or Non-Christian engaging in?" Can it really be the same institution? I don't know, and it's OK if you don't know. However, to question someone else's Christianity because they asked you a question that you can't answer is not fair.

#3. Everyone here has and does sin. Many people on this board are having sex outside of marriage, lying, thinking negative thoughts about others, having sexual thoughts about others, stealing (from the Church, the govt., or others) and most commonly (at least on this board) judging others. So to condemn someone else because of their choices, is hypocritical at best.

Now I say this, because there was a comment about the "anti-gay marriage advocates" on this board having a vendetta or being hateful. I think that may be the perception because some of the replys do not simply attack the person's arguments, but rather they seem to attack the person themelves. Some of the replys seem to be making JUDGEMENTS about the people who posted, rather than targeting the merit of their comment or post. (Not all just some.) I know many will say that they aren't judging anyone, however, I'm not certain that this is the truth when you read the SPIRIT of some of the replys.

I guess, I just don't understand how one can take a Christ-like stance, when the nature of the way that they are taking this stance is unChrist-like.

Last piece, I promise. If you want to reply that's cool. However, if you do so please reply to the spirit and the merit of my comments. I really hate it when you make an argument w/5 good points, and then someone refutes just 1 point as if that makes the entire argument null.

JMHO,
Marie

First I dont flake out on anyting
Second, you can call me un-christlike all you want...the only opinion that matters to me as far as that is concerned is God's....and like I said...he will judge us all and we'll be accountable for our own actions..but i was not going to sit by and listen to a self professed Christian say she was for Human rights as if the word of God..and everyone opposed to gay marriage isn't
Third, i've said PLENTY on the homosexuality lifestyle and why its wrong and if you missed it i'll reiterate i.e. its sick, perverted/imorral, will destroy the family, many gay men have been molested and many women are tired of being dogged bymen and thus turn to this lifestyle, it will open the door to other immoral lifestyles wanting to be married i.e. polygamy, incest, beastiality etc. and lasty IT IS A CHOICE! It doesn't matter what i say, what proof i offer...some are still going to disagree and thats cool...
And lastly..for those non christians that are married...marriage is ordained by God....there's no debate about that. But when you don't follow God's law...that's why u have a situation where the divorce rate is 50%. No one takes the word seriously...and especially what it has to say about marriage. however i think the point is irrelevant because it doesnt change the fact that in God's eyes the homosexual lifestyle is an abomination...and it many American's eyes its sick!

And yes i agree with what someone else said...we will have to agree to disagree...but throughout this discussion i have really learned a lot as to why some people think the way they do...and thats a good thing

[SummerChild]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
Pitts is one of my favorite columnists -- who happens to be African American. I'm happy to see one of "us" come out so strongly in calling us out on our own bigotry...


LEONARD PITTS

For release 03/12/04

'CIVIL' WAR BETWEEN GAYS AND BLACKS

By Leonard Pitts Jr.

Tribune Media Services

Call it an object lesson in the quality of equality.

I refer to last week's Senate subcommittee hearing on the proposed constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage. And specifically, to an exchange between two leaders of the black community.

The first, Hilary Shelton, director of the Washington bureau of the NAACP, argued that the amendment "would use the Constitution to discriminate." Which brought a sharp retort from the Rev. Richard Richardson, chairman of political affairs for the Black Ministerial Alliance of Greater Boston Inc. Defining marriage as the union of a woman and a man, he said, "is not discrimination. And I find it offensive to call it that."

If you polled black folk, Richardson's view would doubtless prove typical. Though it's not generally appreciated by the wider world, blacks are among the most socially conservative Americans there are. Particularly on gay issues. Indeed, if you want to start a fight, suggest to a group of black folk that there are parallels between the civil rights movement and the gay community's struggle for equality.

Even blacks who are sympathetic to the gay cause often bristle at the comparison. As the Rev. Jesse Jackson recently put it, "Gays were never called three-fifths' human in the Constitution."

Those who are not sympathetic are even harsher. Gene Rivers, a Boston minister, accuses gays of "pimping" the civil rights movement.

Granted, the comparison between the black struggle and the gay one is inexact. But here's the thing: Every freedom movement from Poland's labor uprising to America's feminism to China's Tiananmen Square protests has been compared to the civil rights movement. When Czechoslovakians threw off communist rule in 1989, they sang "We Shall Overcome." Yet no one bothered to point out that the Czechs were never slighted in the U.S. Constitution, much less to accuse Poles of "pimping" the civil rights movement. What's that tell you?

It tells me this stinginess about the movement only arises when gays seek to embrace it. And that black people - some of us, at least - ought to be ashamed.

How can we of all people, we who know the weight of American oppression better than almost anyone, stand in the path of those who seek simple equality? How can we support writing anyone out of the Constitution when it took us so long to be written in?

And how can we stand with the very people - social conservatives - who not so long ago didn't want us in their churches, their schools, their parks or their restaurants? Yet more and more, we act and sound just like them.

We use our Bibles to justify our bigotry, just as they did.

We describe equality as unnatural, just as they did.

We invoke the sanctity of tradition, just as they did.

And we are wrong, just as they were.

Worse, we have wrapped our community in a conspiracy of silence, made being homosexual something one simply does not discuss. So that if you are black and gay or black and lesbian, there is often no sane thought of "coming out," no safe place to be who you are. The black community has no resources for you, no tolerance of you, no compassion for you. Yes, there are exceptions, but not enough. Not nearly.

Is it any surprise, then, that blacks lead the nation in new cases of HIV and AIDS?

Too many of us fail - or refuse - to see the great generality that overarches the specificity of our struggles. Meaning that it doesn't matter whether you are gay or black or woman or Jew or even Czech: people have a right to be free.

This is the principle gay people are fighting to vindicate. And no, it isn't the civil rights movement, but make no mistake: it's definitely "a" civil rights movement.

Except that this time, black people are on the other side.

(Leonard Pitts is a columnist for the Miami Herald, 1 Herald Plaza, Miami, Fla., 33132. Readers may contact him at (888) 251-4407 or via e-mail at lpitts@herald.com.)

© 2004, The Miami Herald

Distributed by Tribune Media Services, Inc.

These types of arguments annoy me because it seems that some people think that just because Black people were discriminated against (and continue to be discriminated against) that that requires us to adopt all views of others, whether we truly believe in them or not.

Black people have a right to be *discriminating* in our views just like any other race has that right.

Our oppressive history in this country does not lead to a result that we must now be accepting of everything under the sun. Just like we don't all vote Democrat or Republican, we don't all believe the same on the gay rights issue - and we all have a right to believe whatever we want - no matter our oppressive history.

When it comes to gay people's right to have affection for who they want to, then it's supposed to be a free world and they can do/think as they please BUT when it comes to people expressing their opinions on the matter and accepting it or not, then *it's no longer a free world and we can *not* do/think as we please*. What gives?

What's good for the goose .... You can't have it both ways IMO.

SC

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by SummerChild
These types of arguments annoy me because it seems that some people think that just because Black people were discriminated against (and continue to be discriminated against) that that requires us to adopt all views of others, whether we truly believe in them or not.

Black people have a right to be *discriminating* in our views just like any other race has that right.

Our oppressive history in this country does not lead to a result that we must now be accepting of everything under the sun. Just like we don't all vote Democrat or Republican, we don't all believe the same on the gay rights issue - and we all have a right to believe whatever we want - no matter our oppressive history.

SC

good point SC

[AXEAM]

Originally posted by rho4life
I guess the GC peeps are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. When one person spoke up and defend gay people's rights to be equal with heterosexuals, she was attacked, and her religion and sexuality quesitoned.

While the struggles that ethnic minorities and homosexuals face are DIFFERENT, one is not better or worse. Discrimination is never good.

All humans should be able to love who they want without fear of persecution. This country was founded on ideas of religious freedom. Let's not forget that. Regardless of your personal life, think about whether or not we should ammend the US Constitution to RESTRICT rights.

Women in particular, consider whether or not you want the government to restrict your legal rights any further.

As of the writing of this message, CA has stopped Gay marriages. Thankfully some couples I know were able to affirm their commitment to each other recently. Hopefully, the courts will recognize their relationships, and allow them to share in all the rights and obligations associated with marriage.

Peace y'all!

My post was in response to the part about the discrimination that ethnic minorities face being no worse then that of homosexuals, just Saturday while driving back from Tuscaloosa, Alabama I was followed by policemen for about 3miles then pulled over. The policeman asked me where I headed then looked @ my DL and registration peeked through the car,s back window then told me to have a nice day just another case of DWB. Now I never heard of DWG or can't image a policeman looking in a car and decides that person is gay and I'm going to stop him/her.

[brickhouse492]

Why should I have to explain this whole gay thing to my children. Women and women can't have children - NATURALLY OR NORMALLY.

My 5 year old daughter walked in my room for all of 2 minutes, while I was watching television, and she sees Rosie O'donald kissing her new bride. I was so ticked off.

I don't discriminate against gay people but just because you think it's normal ...... why do my children HAVE to be exposed to the madness? Oh that's right, because YOU think it's normal.

And yes, I think it is okay for my children to see men and woman kiss as a sign of affection. Perfectly normal. They know that mommy and daddy's love brought them into this world through the grace of God.