ITT We Discuss Theology

[barbino]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That's one reading of the passages you cite -- that deacons should be men -- but not the only reading of them. (The Timothy ones at least; I don't know what Judges has to do with it, given that (a) the office of diakonos is a New Testament concept, not a Hebrew one, and (b) there were female judges.) I know many seminary students, graduates and professors who would say it is not an accurate reading.

One could continue reading in 1 Timothy 3 to verse 11, which speaks of "the women" and seems to be talking about what kind of women should be deacons. (The other meaning would be that Paul is referring to deacon's wives, but that doesn't really fit contextually.) Then there's the case of Romans 16:1, where Paul specifically refers to Phoebe as a deacon. True, the word diakonos, from which we get the English "deacon" literally means "servant" or "one who waits on others," so Paul could simply be calling her a servant of the church. But what, then, do we make of the fact that Paul used the masculine diakonos rather than the feminine diakona? It would seem that if he simply meant "servant" he would have used the later. His use of the masculine in reference to a women could suggest that he did indeed mean it as a title or designation, not simply as a description. Literally, he says "I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, she is deacon (ousan diakonon) of the assembly (church/ekklesia) at Cenchrea."

I think one has to be careful about reading more into 1 Timothy than Paul intended. If indeed it is setting forth absolute requirements, then it would seem that deacons must not only be men, but must be married ("the husband of one wife") and fathers ("manage his children and his household well.") I think Paul's point was not that only men can be deacons (otherwise, why verse 11 about "the women"?), but rather one should be able to manage one's own affairs before one tries to manage the church's affairs, and that bigamists or polygamists need not apply.

It seems odd to say the least that a female diaconate would have existed under the early Church Fathers (which it did) if Paul had so clearly forbidden it. How these female deacons' roles compared to (or differed from) their male counterparts can certainly be debated, but it's pretty clear that Paul assumed women would be deacons.

MysticCat,

You are 100% right about Judges, and I should have known better than to have cited any part of the Bible before checking it first. Thanks for reminding me that I need to check absolutely everything when I edit my husband's papers!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by barbino

Thanks for reminding me that I need to check absolutely everything when I edit my husband's papers!

Exactly why I love it when my wife edits what I've written. She catches things I never do.

[SWTXBelle]

It's heeeeeerrrrreeee! The Anglican Ordinariate!

http://www.usordinariate.org/

My home parish is the principal church - Deo gratias. I'm very excited, especially for the Episcopal and Anglican parishes who are joining us.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

It's heeeeeerrrrreeee! The Anglican Ordinariate!

http://www.usordinariate.org/

My home parish is the principal church - Deo gratias. I'm very excited, especially for the Episcopal and Anglican parishes who are joining us.

I read an article about this earlier this morning and immediately thought of you/this thread! Of course you beat me to the punch!

[Psi U MC Vito]

The timing is interesting because now the liturgy of the Ordinate will not be in step with that the rest of the country is using. The new Order of the Mass seems to me to be more different from the old style then the Rite II of the BCP, which is more or less reproduced in the BDW. Also a question for the Catholics on here. Any of you familiar with Jesuit spirituality?

[SWTXBelle]

Well, technically we were "out of step" when we were simply an Anglican Use parish. With the new Order, we had to make two small changes in our usual service - the one I recall off the top of my head is "holy church" instead of just "church". We've been "And with thy spirit"ing all along.

We don't use the big ol' BDW - we have our order of mass in paperback missals in the pews (including the prayers in Latin we use at the 8:15 mass).

[Psi U MC Vito]

I forgot that Anglican Use has both Rite I and Rite II. My priest was on a retreat right after the changeover and she felt really comfortable because the liturgy was almost identical to the 1928 Prayer Book she grew up with.

[SWTXBelle]

Yes, it's very close to '28 BCP.

Parishes and groups poised to join us:

Holy Cross - Honolulu, Hawaii Fr. Chip Wheeler
Sacred Heart of Jesus - Mount Airy, Maryland Fr. Dennis Hewitt
Oratory of St. Wilfrid - Seffner, Florida Archbishop Edward Steele
Holy Nativity - Payson, Arizona Fr. Lowell Andrews
All Saints - Green Valley, Arizona Bishop Wellborn Hudson

[Psi U MC Vito]

I wonder. Would Anglicans who hold the title of Bishop continue to hold that if they entire the Roman Church?

[SWTXBelle]

No, bishops will become priests. (I don't know how else to phrase it - obviously, bishops ARE priests, but Anglican bishops will lose their status as bishops and become simple priests.)

eta - Here's the press conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epv1rzcRBZE

But unless you love press conferences, this is a better treatment: http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot....e-is-born.html

Our local news really blew their coverage. The reporter said OLOW was founded as an Anglican parish that then went Roman Catholic (not true) and in trying to explain about how married Anglican priests would be accepted said that they would not be able to perform all the duties of a Roman Catholic priest, which is also not true. They just won't be able to become bishops.

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

... Also a question for the Catholics on here. Any of you familiar with Jesuit spirituality?

Oro pro Societas! Are you familiar with <http://ignatianspirituality.com> ?

[Psi U MC Vito]

I just learned of that site recently actually. Decided to google Ignatian Spirituality after I posted here and found that site. Very interesting. The more and more I read the more it appeals to me.

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I just learned of that site recently actually. Decided to google Ignatian Spirituality after I posted here and found that site. Very interesting. The more and more I read the more it appeals to me.

I have always found the Jesuit approach to be the most compelling combination of demanding intellectual rigor and a spirituality approaching mysticism. As the product of a Jesuit Prep School, a Jesuit University, a devotee of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius I am happily astounded by their combination of Faith, speculation, and the general and continuing application of their guidance first given years ago to me as a 'new boy' at school. The question was posed, 'when God gave you a brain do you suppose He had in mind that you might do something with it?'

A.M.D.G.

[Psi U MC Vito]

So fellow GC liturgy nerds *looks at MC* I have a dilemma.I decided to treat myself to buying a prayerbook with money from my taxes. I'm torn between the Book of Common Prayer from the Church of Ireland, the St. Augustine Prayer Book (anglo-catholic devotional manual) or the St. Ambrose Prayer Book (see above but for Western Rite Orthodox). What say you?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

*looks at MC*

I'm sure I don't know what you mean.

I have a St. Augustine's that I picked up at a used bookstore for something like $5. I'm betting if you look around you can find a used copy at a good price.

If it were me, I'd probably go for the Irish Prayer Book -- of the three, it's a canonically-approved liturgy rather than a devotional manual, and that's what I'd probably want in my collection. But if you'd rather have a devotional manual . . . .

I don't know anything about the St. Ambrose, but if you've got an anglo-catholic bent (which I think I remember you do), I think you'd like the St. Autgustine's.