kappa sigma at fgcu?

[TSteven]

Thank you Rambler1869 for your posts. If I may, I have a few questions.

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

There is no policy at FGCU that says a fraternity cannot colonize without being approved. There is a punishment policy that involves initiating members; but that's it. In that regard, to date Kappa Sigma has not violated any policies of FGCU.

In terms of their wishes, the school also cannot prohibit any group from forming (freedom to assemble).

If this is true, then why has it taken from November 2008 to March 2010 to begin the process to become an RSO at FGCU?

Frankly, Kappa Sigma should have a number of alumni members that are attorneys. So if no rules were broken, then they should have been able to guide y'all through the legal paperwork rather effortlessly.

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Even the Assistant General Counsel for FGCU has issued a written statement to Kappa Sigma early March, which says any individual student can reserve meeting rooms. When attempting to reserve a meeting space, that exact letter was presented and individual student was still denied.

What was the specific (official) reason for the denial?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Knight Shadow, I don't think calling you out is productive, but facts are facts, and you are wrong on your liability comment. Creative a fictitious "governing body" does not absolve FGCU from liability in any way. Unless you can provide proof, I believe you completely made up that comment. One thing you are right about is that "many" universities adopt this policy, but listen on. PRIVATE universities adopt this policy because they can do whatever they want. They are private and can ban all fraternities if they'd like. FGCU is a public university and an arm of the State of Florida. Being a governmental entity, they cannot operate this way. If they hold steadfast to the position that they can, then we will have to duke it out in court someday, but we are hoping to avoid litigation because it is costly and lengthy. In the meantime, the undergraduates are being punished unfairly. They are being denied the same rights you enjoy, and that is unfair to them.

LOL

You can believe I made up the comment if you want.

It's clear that you think talking in circles and throwing a "XXX v. YYY" in your lengthy responses shows that you know what you're talking about.

If you feel that your rights have been violated, stop bitching to random usernames and take it up in court. If your argument is as strong as you think it is, you should be on FGCU's campus in no time.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

"You needed to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization."

No, we don't, according to the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. We don't have to be accepted by IFC to be recognized by FGCU.

Oh wow.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Your organization was formed.

You needed to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization.

You were allowed (by FGCU) to petition for membership in IFC.

IFC didn't want you right now. You'll have to wait.

Formed, off campus - not using school facilities. This goes back to the heart of the issue.

You do not need to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization; this is a very common misconception.

The point, was being allowed to become a Registered Student Organization; which can be outside of IFC. As you do not need to be part of the Greek Council, to be a Greek organization; IFC recognition would be the ideal route, however it isnt needed to be a fraternity on a public university. As it stands, these men were denied the right to even apply as an RSO.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Formed, off campus - not using school facilities. This goes back to the heart of the issue.

You do not need to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization; this is a very common misconception.

The point, was being allowed to become a Registered Student Organization; which can be outside of IFC. As you do not need to be part of the Greek Council, to be a Greek organization; IFC recognition would be the ideal route, however it isnt needed to be a fraternity on a public university. As it stands, these men were denied the right to even apply as an RSO.

If you want to be recognized by the school as a GLO and the school requires GLOs to have council membership, then yes, you do.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Look, I don't see how they are discriminating agianst you. You aren't recognized, because they require IFC membership, or at least that is what I think is the issue. However, for them to be discriminating against you, they would have to be specifically punishing you for being a member of Kappa Sigma, which they are not doing. Oh news flash, there are quite a few state organizations that run like this. No law is violated, because as I said, they are not punishing you. Hell if anything, you want them to hold you to a different standard then anybody else. That is discriminatory against them.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Dr. Phil, quit taking shots, we are trying to be productive, and I think we are past the name calling.

No.

Rambler1869:
There are a lot of institutions that will not allow organizations to charter a chapter unless they will automatically or eventually be under a Greek council. This allows all GLOs to be under an "umbrella" so that this "umbrella" (in combination with the local/regional or district/national entities of the GLOs) can keep it all in check. Then the Greek Life offices and the institutions have a context through which they can impose their rules and regulations.

People used to say that the rules and regulations of their GLOs supercede those of the institutions, but it actually works the other way around much of the time because the institutions are "allowing" them to be on that campus.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

What are you "Oh, wowing," Dr. Phil? Please provide support under any law of this State of federally where it is legal to deny recognition to students because their fellow students don't want them around. Please.

Again, we will win in court, but if we can avoid it, we will. So you guys know, filing a complaint in federal court and going through the first few stages can cost up the $50,000. We don't waste fraternity capital on lawsuits until we absolutely have to. It's called being fiscally responsible. We focus on keeping our undergraduate dues and liability costs among the cheapest in the fraternal world.

Then why the hell are you complaining about it here? What do you think we, as usernames, are going to do to change the outcome?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Vito I'm going to say this as nicely as I can, but you are dead wrong. Legally and no offense, you have absolutely no idea what you re talking about. I don't think you're stupid because you are wrong, so don't get all offended on me. But legally, dead wrong.

"If you want to be recognized by the school as a GLO and the school requires GLOs to have council membership, then yes, you do."

Knight Shadow, so you think it's constitutional for the school to allow other students (IFC members) to say whether we can or can't be an organization? Slippery slope. You won't find support for that theory in any doctrine legally, anywhere, but hey, it's your opinion.

Again, I will ask you, do you even have any legal trianing. We have somebody who most would argue is a Constitutional scholar, telling you are talking out of your ass. You just keep saying something is illegal without explaining how it is. And I do know what I am talking about, considering I went to a state school that also require a social GLO to be recognized by our IFSC before being granted recognizance by the OGL.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Vito I'm going to say this as nicely as I can, but you are dead wrong. Legally and no offense, you have absolutely no idea what you re talking about. I don't think you're stupid because you are wrong, so don't get all offended on me. But legally, dead wrong.

"If you want to be recognized by the school as a GLO and the school requires GLOs to have council membership, then yes, you do."

Knight Shadow, so you think it's constitutional for the school to allow other students (IFC members) to say whether we can or can't be an organization? Slippery slope. You won't find support for that theory in any doctrine legally, anywhere, but hey, it's your opinion.

I'll say it again: You still haven't answered questions asked of you.

I won't find any support, yet schools around the country practice it. All of a sudden, a group of undergrads feels they're entitled to something, and it's dead wrong.

Like TSteven said, if your rights were violated, KSig's lawyers likely would have stepped in.

They haven't.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Thank you Rambler1869 for your posts. If I may, I have a few questions.



If this is true, then why has it taken from November 2008 to March 2010 to begin the process to become an RSO at FGCU?

Frankly, Kappa Sigma should have a number of alumni members that are attorneys. So if no rules were broken, then they should have been able to guide y'all through the legal paperwork rather effortlessly.



What was the specific (official) reason for the denial?

Missed this post earlier. The reason it has taken so long; is because the school (on multiple occasions) had refused to even issue the RSO application; because of their single-gender status as a fraternity. After the news story ran; the school did issue an application that is currently in the works; however there is still debate surrounding the single-sex protection.

Kappa Sigma does have a number of alumni who are attorney's and a number of them are currently working with the FGCU legal department (outside of formal litigation) to attempt to resolve the matter peacefully; as it is our belief that neither side wants to go that route. However, please do not take that as we wont; we just believe it should be a last resort scenario. We would have much prefered the entire issue been handled peacefully; which is why its only been until fairly recently that many of you became aware of the situation at all; as we were trying to work with the school rather than against it.

The official denial (oral, not written) was that they knew it was for a fraternity, which needed IFC recognition. Please note, the individual did not say or write that the room was for Kappa Sigma. As crazy as that sounds; its unfortunately how it went down.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Those "umbrellas" are a legal fallacy, and are only legal at PRIVATE institutions. FGCU can't force fraternities to be under a Greek umbrella any more than they can force a religious organization to be under a religious council umbrella. Treating Greeks differently is discrimination. And forcing all greeks through the same discriminatory process doesn't make it constitutional. some people operate under teh assumption that this "umbrella" is legal and necessary to "enforce rules." We don't, that's it.

WRONG.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Very fair question TSteven, and I hope you'll let me answer.

FGCU wouldn't even let us apply to be an RSO. We had multiple meetings with the administration, and we were told we couldn't apply unless IFC recognized us. Finally, once we got media coverage and put enough pressure on the university, they gave us an application to apply, and I swear on anyone's grave that is the god's honest truth- FGCU wouldn't even let us apply and they told us (orally) time and time again, including the Dean of Students and the VP of student Affairs that they wouldn't recognize us unless IFC did first. As you should know, IFC also denied us the right to even go to a meeting and give a presentation until March 2010. So, unfortunately, things take forever.

If I correctly understand the current situation, at this point in time, your chapter's application to be an RSO is being reviewed by FGCU. And y'all were able to give a presentation to the IFC this past March.

So would it be fair to say that progress is being made regarding recognition by FGCU as a RSO and with the IFC as an official chapter - or colony as the case may be?

And as a follow up, what was the specific (official) reason for the denial with respect to the attempt to reserve a meeting space?

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Like TSteven said, if your rights were violated, KSig's lawyers likely would have stepped in.

They haven't.

Yes, they did. In February a formal notification was sent by the Kappa Sigma legal commision to FGCU, stating our position; in hopes of a speedy turn around. As I mentioned earlier; there are other talks in the works between the legal teams

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Yes, they did. In February a formal notification was sent by the Kappa Sigma legal commision to FGCU, stating our position; in hopes of a speedy turn around. As I mentioned earlier; there are other talks in the works between the legal teams

I think you should tell KSigAdvisor to stop talking, as you're a better representation of your organization.

If the wheels are turning and you all are working toward getting this resolved, why is this being debated on a message board? Why not let this thing run its course?