from the author of Pledged

[James]

Ok I bought the book . . so far its not bad.

I mean it reads like a discussion on GC, especially some of he ones we have had about southern sororities.

I am only into the first part and I already don't like Vicki she is just kind of pathetic. One boy friend since she was in 7th grade and her sisters "persuade" her to break up with him, which isn't really her fault you know . . . and she is all broken up about it because he is the love of her life . but got in the way of her social sorority duties . . in other words she felt left out.


Just reading about her makes me faintly nauseous.

Sabrina seems pretty cool so far . . and Caitlin seems a bit of a flake but well its early on. . .

Maybe I can just skip the parts with Vicki?

[pinkyphimu]

i read parts of the book today at the bookstore. most of her sources are crap. as someone else pointed out, most college professors wouldn't accept some of her sources.

my main question is....she quoted the kappa delta norman shield frequently. doesn't she need to get permission to publish that in her book? it is great and all that she credited the source, but how can she just publish portions of someone else's book without their permission? even tho it is a new member manual and not a novel, shouldn't it be copyrighted? and if she didn't get permission, does kd have some rights to sue?

[decadence]

posted by pinkyphimu:
my main question is....she quoted the kappa delta norman shield frequently. doesn't she need to get permission to publish that in her book? it is great and all that she credited the source, but how can she just publish portions of someone else's book without their permission? even tho it is a new member manual and not a novel, shouldn't it be copyrighted? and if she didn't get permission, does kd have some rights to sue?

You don't know that she didn't get permission.
Additionally, kappadelta.org seems to list publicly a whole bunch of Acrobat files making up the Norman Shield on their website.
Finally, in any case the publisher of the book itself is fairly large and its parent company is a Time Warner company. The chances that their extensive legal teams didn't make sure everything was okay are very-slim to none.

[kddani]

Originally posted by decadence
You don't know that she didn't get permission.
Additionally, kappadelta.org seems to list publicly a whole bunch of Acrobat files making up the Norman Shield on their website.
Finally, in any case the publisher of the book itself is fairly large and its parent company is a Time Warner company. The chances that their extensive legal teams didn't make sure everything was okay are very-slim to none.

I'm about 99% sure that KD did NOT give her permission. Being that NPC was against this to begin with, that KD expressly told me NOT to talk to her, and that the NPC sororities VERY rarely comply with this sort of thing.

Just because something is published on a website does NOT mean that anyone can take it and use it in their own publications. It's still protected by copyright law. Additionally, from what has been said, she did not even use anything from this version, she used an early 90's version, which is NOT on the web.

I only have an intro level copyright class under my belt, and we didn't delve too deeply into the laws surrounding the book publishing world. I'm guessing the company would use a "fair use" argument because they would say it's educational in nature. But I don't know where the line between fair use and copyright infringement would be in this case.

I put the question about this out on our KD yahoogroup, i'd like to see if anyone from HQ will answer my question, as they occassionally do when we put that type of question out in the group. If not, I intend to contact HQ more directly once my book arrives and i get to see exactly how it's cited.

And don't be so certain about Time-Warner's legal teams.... big companies screw up all the time. And the law in the US, ESPECIALLY copyright law, can be interpreted in many ways. Copyright law is an area that is very rarely cut and dry.

[smiley21]

who interviewed her on the today show? i would think that katie couric would want to be all over that opportunity

[decadence]

I shan't comment on how realistic/viable a case of infringement is, admittedly personally I think it's unlikely but that is a layman's view!

What I do want to say... is that there is a very important need to protect trademarks and intellectual property etc like in the NPHC Converse case where shoes (sneakers?) were sold marked with more than a passing resemblance to NPHC orgs founding years/colors, deliberately and without any permission.

I think that is very very different from what is the case here. I believe it is important to act to protect properties but in this case I think resources could be better focused than on this questionable area? I personally FEEL, that to instigate a lawsuit in this situation would be symptomatic of the reputation the United States has (whether the reputation is poppycock or not!) for being sue happy over everything.

In reference to your last paragraph, I agree, but think because it is so open to interpretation that suggests long drawn out - read expensive - lawsuits where the money could be better spent elsewhere.

I don't know how the fact the sources were attributed affects the whole issue if at all.

[pinkyphimu]

Originally posted by kddani


I put the question about this out on our KD yahoogroup, i'd like to see if anyone from HQ will answer my question, as they occassionally do when we put that type of question out in the group. If not, I intend to contact HQ more directly once my book arrives and i get to see exactly how it's cited.

And don't be so certain about Time-Warner's legal teams.... big companies screw up all the time. And the law in the US, ESPECIALLY copyright law, can be interpreted in many ways. Copyright law is an area that is very rarely cut and dry.

i would love to hear their answer...even if you just pm me!

big companies do screw up. my friend is a patent attorney and deals with multimillion dollar coporations who use things they aren't supposed to without paying the proper people. for them, it is almost easier to see if they get caught. since they are so big, payment after a law suit is a drop in the bucket. if they don't get caught, then they don't have to pay anyone. do i think this is very ethical? absolutely not, but it is a reality. and while we would all like to think that every big business is out there doing the right thing all of the time....they aren't. it is all about money.

I think that is very very different from what is the case here. I believe it is important to act to protect properties but in this case I think resources could be better focused than on this questionable area? I personally FEEL, that to instigate a lawsuit in this situation would be symptomatic of the reputation the United States has (whether the reputation is poppycock or not!) for being sue happy over everything.

i would love to hear why you think sueing for someone quoting out of a book that they have no permission to use is a useless lawsuit. and while i am not 100% sure that kd didn't give permission, it is more than likely that she didn't.

[kddani]

Originally posted by pinkyphimu
i would love to hear their answer...even if you just pm me!


i would love to hear why you think sueing for someone quoting out of a book that they have no permission to use is a useless lawsuit. and while i am not 100% sure that kd didn't give permission, it is more than likely that she didn't.

I will certainly let you know if I find out anything!

I think the thing that upsets me the most about her quoting the KD new member manual (the Norman Shield) at length is that volunteers gave hundreds of hours to put together our new member program and manual, and she's using their work to make money.

There are very few employees of our respective groups. The people who work at HQ, travelling consultants, and any attorneys or accountants retained are about it. The very substantial amount of work that goes into making GLOs work is done by VOLUNTEERS.
/personal rant about taking the work of volunteers and profitting from it...

[decadence]

\disclaimer: The following post are personal thoughts and opinions on what is touched on in this thread. /disclaimer No flames please!

I'd like to clarify what I mean more, on my earlier post.

I think there are precious few books about mainstream greek life. Actually, I know there are.
Let's see there's Baird's which we can ignore as its a (albeit useful) directory and it isn't as if it tells someone who's interested in going greek what to expect (or say someone who's just interested in fraternity life but it isn't so easy for them to experience directly). That just isn't the sort of book it is.

So we have Inspiration for Greeks which is good, there's Secret Sisters & Out on Fraternity Row which deal with the experience of gay/bisexual members of sororities and fraternities respectively (I understand for secret sisters a memo went out by at least one NPC group not to co-operate).
There's the Divine Nine book by Lawrence Ross which was an excellent move or In Search of Sisterhood or Black Greek 101. In fact, there seem to be many books about the NPHC groups or surrounding aspects such as step shows (e.g. Soulstepping) etc. Unlike NPC/NIC?

There's out of print stuff like From here to Fraternity so we can ignore that. And teen fiction for girls on sororities maybe.

As far as comments go which say it (GLOs) can't be explained, I agree any book can only give broad brushstrokes within a finite number of pages but that goes almost without saying.

My point is there are precious few books where people can find out about greek life if they're interested - whether that be because they're off to a college with fraternities or sororities once they graduate their high school or whether they're simply interested in 'the whole fraternity thing' (!!!) without some dark motive to search out negativity! My point of there being precious few books is that THIS IS NOT HELPED BY POLICIES AND MEMOS THAT FORBID ANY CO-OPERATION!
This means - apart from the very few examples above - (and now Pledged) that those interested have to seek out what information **IS** available. That leaves information which can be reported on whether the orgs like it or not: i.e. news. Since, there's a legitimate reason for reporting news ("in the public interest") the media can do so; and what's more newsworthy? Scandal/Hazing etc sells.

I'm just suggesting here that NPC groups are cutting their nose off to spite their face. People WANT to hear personal experiences and by outlawing talking about your sorority to, say someone writing a book you leave those people only able to look to other resources such as news stories etc. Thrilling exposés are probably more saleable than philanthropies! And people want to hear a balanced honest personal view sometimes. This means the good with the bad. That doesn't indicate some dark lets make an exposé 'cause hey we want to destroy greek life element. It just means that for a balanced and honest appraisal of all the positives you have to admit sometimes there are petty arguments etc like life in general, and other things.

Having a policy that forbids such co-operation only leaves available either nothing (excuse the hell outta me but PR is important!!!) or leaves some sanitised 'acceptable' monitored release that's been through a legal dept, been through everyone in marketing and their dog, and is probably all 'la la la and then we had a group hug and the sun set' dull as ditchwater. It just must look as if "hey what's so bad that you mustn't talk about it?" (and I know rituals etc must remain secret, I'm not talking about that)
Then, there's not only doing everything to warn against assisting and trying to block dissemination of any info/experiences but if by chance something does get published against all odds subsequently trying to find something to sue the hell out of them over it!!!

p.s. I don't have some dislike for KD or any other org or think that said org doesn't have a right to protect themself as a whole. I just think greekdom could do more to market itself which would leave less people thinking "fraternities=secret societies=hazing=The Skulls=more hazing" type trash because they don't get to hear anything different.

[kddani]

Every single NPC org has the same sort of policy. And there is a great amount of reasoning behind it.

Honestly, the only response I care to give at this time is that between the cultural differences and not being a member of these groups, you just don't understand.

[James]

Thats really unfair Kddani.

Decadence's reasoning, while maybe a trifle convoluted ,is pretty sound.

If you were engaged in a character debate and the only people that are talking are the ones that don't like you, you are not going to look to good to people that don't know you.

As far as not being able to understand . . because well . . he just isn't Greek and from England . . it's not true.

Greek Leter organizations are, socialogically speaking, primary groups with a social mission. Anyone thats been in a primary group will understand the bonds forged through a common goal and a group based identity. Someone with a military or a sports team background will get it even better.

There are some things unique to Greek life as there are some things unique to all primary groups, but they are more application than definition.

For example: All primary groups have to recruit new members or die. Sororities have Formal Rush.

Originally posted by kddani
Every single NPC org has the same sort of policy. And there is a great amount of reasoning behind it.

Honestly, the only response I care to give at this time is that between the cultural differences and not being a member of these groups, you just don't understand.

[damasa]

Originally posted by decadence


I think that is very very different from what is the case here. I believe it is important to act to protect properties but in this case I think resources could be better focused than on this questionable area? I personally FEEL, that to instigate a lawsuit in this situation would be symptomatic of the reputation the United States has (whether the reputation is poppycock or not!) for being sue happy over everything.

Two quick questions for you.

1. Are you a U.S. citizen and/or do you live in the states?

2. Are you greek?


If you have answered no to the previous questions, please refrain from commenting on the things you don't know about.

It's all about the mad Engrish...

[James]

Be nice Damasa . . pretend Decadence is your little brother.

And well . . we can't bash the English . . after all we let Canadians participate in discussions on here.

They killed the Baldwins (before the last American-Canadian War)and inflicted us with Brian Adams and the skater chick. OH and they have those beady eyes and flapping heads.

Originally posted by damasa
Two quick questions for you.

1. Are you a U.S. citizen and/or do you live in the states?

2. Are you greek?


If you have answered no to the previous questions, please refrain from commenting on the things you don't know about.

It's all about the mad Engrish...

[damasa]

Originally posted by James
Be nice Damasa . . pretend Decadence is your little brother.

And well . . we can't bash the English . . after all we let Canadians participate in discussions on here.

They killed the Baldwins (before the last American-Canadian War)and inflicted us with Brian Adams and the skater chick. OH and they have those beady eyes and flapping heads.

Oh I am being nice James. I just don't like when people play off a stereotype. In any event, copyright laws are established for this sort of thing and if KD wanted to sue to protect that then they have every right to. No matter if some duder over in England thinks they shouldn't because it would display how Americans are, "sue happy."

As for asking about being greek, well I guess I was getting at the fact that said duder would maybe feel differently if he was greek. He might understand how certain ritual materials or member manuals can be considered pretty sacred....

[adpiucf]

I agree with NPC's non-compliance with the media. Why? The media portrays us time and time again in a negative light (and fairly so--- because they are broadcasting negative news about hazing, alcohol, etc.)

Sensationalism sells. Would it have been more interesting if Clinton and Lewinsky opened a library today? I don't think so.

NPC should take advantage of the 1000s of volunteers within its ranks to put out literature about Greek Life and the recuitment process, personal experiences, etc., in the form of privately published and publicly marketed literature. Expanding the NPC web site with testimonials and stories, as well as putting togther multi-layered brochures and collateral for distribution in high schools, young women's clubs and colleges would help make an impact and increase interest.

Pledged is out there, folks. It's going to make money. It's not going to destroy us.

/End My $.02