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  #1  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:22 PM
justamom justamom is offline
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Now this is what I call a GREAT debate, point-counter point!

BTW, the Pope is considered the final word on laws of God and laws of the Catholic Church. His stance on the war is not one to which Catholics are bound.
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  #2  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:28 PM
moe.ron moe.ron is offline
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Also the debate is done in a civil manner. Kudos to everyone.
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  #3  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:33 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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In regards to the figurehead remark. I could totally be wrong. I'm not catholic and it would be wrong for me to claim that. I didn't realize that if the Pope says something everoyne must follow. Is this true? Can someone confirm?

In regards to your second point, I didn't say that it's not OK for Americans to protest the war. So I don't see a circular argument.

And in regards to the last comment about the chaplains, they are still serving people and I would gather that they would be there regardless if you replaced the word "military" with any other group that would have catholics in it. I don't see how this point can become invalid if they are ordained and then join the military. I see what they're doing as sort of their "job"...they are there to support Catholics. Am I wrong about this?

-Rudey
--And wouldn't the church in some sense be a democracy if the pope is elected by the cardinals?

Quote:
Originally posted by DeltAlum
I'm not real sure that Catholics (which I am not one of) would agree that the Pope is a fugurehead. Last I heard, he does still set church doctrine and is it's final authority. He's not a basically powerless monarch. In fact, he doesn't really have to answer to the Cardinals, Bishops, Priests or anyone else for that matter. He answers to God.

And, to follow your logic, haven't you just created a circular argument for yourself?

To wit:

The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church and is anti-war, but it's OK for Catholics not to be, and potentially to participate in pro-war rallys.

The President is the head of the United States and is pro-war, but it's not OK for Americans not to be, and participate in anti-war rallys?

By the way, the United States is a democracy -- the Catholic Church isn't.

The "church" (meaning religion globally in the US) has a long history of protest. In fact, I am an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church, USA, which is a Protestant denomination. The root word for Protestant is protest. During the struggle for Civil Rights and the Vietnam Anti-War movement, many memebers of the clergy were outspoken in their protests, organized and led marches and participated in many other ways. And many went to jail for their (peaceful) civil disobedience.

You do bring up an interesting point, though. I don't know whether Catholic Chaplains become Priests and are assigned to the military, or if they join the Army/Navy/Marines/AF, etc. My suspicion is that they are ordained first, and the military part follows. If they are ordained first, I think your third point is invalid.
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  #4  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:37 PM
moe.ron moe.ron is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rudey
And wouldn't the church in some sense be a democracy if the pope is elected by the cardinals?
In a way yes, it sort of like Singapore where the party leaders choose the next prime minister, or maybe China. Not that I'm comparing the Catholic church to China or Singapore. It's democratic, but not representative democracy.
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  #5  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:50 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by justamom
Now this is what I call a GREAT debate, point-counter point!

BTW, the Pope is considered the final word on laws of God and laws of the Catholic Church. His stance on the war is not one to which Catholics are bound.
An interesting point . . . but I think it really depends on what the Pope's anti-war stance is based on. For example, if he cites a Biblical passage that claims that war is wrong, then wouldn't his view on the war carry over into the religious views that he supposedly is the final word on? But if his stance is based on politics, not religion, then I don't think it would matter.

I've only read one article on the Pope's stance on the war, so I don't remember what exactly he said about it. Can anybody else enlighten us?
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  #6  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:50 PM
Peaches-n-Cream Peaches-n-Cream is offline
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Rudey, it is difficult to explain 2000 years of the Roman Catholic Chuch on a website, but here is some information if you are interested.
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  #7  
Old 04-04-2003, 06:58 PM
DeltAlum DeltAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arya
It's democratic, but not representative democracy.
Additionally, the Cardinals are appointed by the Pope (not elected by the priesthood or layety), who is elected for life. The College of Cardinals can't "over-ride a Papal declaration, so, with the exception of electing the next Pope, there really isn't democracy there, either. They advise. The Catholic layman has no vote at any level.

I think we're straying from the original thought (my fault), though. My point is simply that the "church" (whichever denomination) is a body that has historically led protests of one kind or another and still been able to support it's members in endeavors such as war through prayer, blood drives, support of family members on the homefront and other tangible means.

edited to add:

Thanks for the link, Cream. One of the most difficult, and probably the most rewarding events of my TV career was producing and directing a Papal Mass at World Youth Day in Denver in the 1990's. Notwithstanding the fact that it was delivered in several languages, my only real contact with the Catholic Church was going to Midnight Mass with a Catholic woman I dated for a while in college. I enjoyed the link -- and the production I mention is undoubdetly the most moving thing I've done in a career which includes a lot of interesting assignments. It was magical.
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The above is the opinion of the poster which may or may not be based in known facts and does not necessarily reflect the views of Delta Tau Delta or Greek Chat -- but it might.

Last edited by DeltAlum; 04-04-2003 at 07:10 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-04-2003, 07:23 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeltAlum
My point is simply that the "church" (whichever denomination) is a body that has historically led protests of one kind or another and still been able to support it's members in endeavors such as war through prayer, blood drives, support of family members on the homefront and other tangible means.
First, you got at a good point. I claimed that chaplains aren't there to support the troops but more so a broader category of people ("members" as you call them).

Second, I don't see tangible support for troops led by the church in a large movement. I'm not talking about prayer, although in my view that is important as well. If I am wrong, I'd like you to provide examples. I have yet to see the pope organize a large day of service for the coalition troops in which catholic church members get together and prepare care packages.

Third, this still doesn't address the fact that the church's role isn't the same as an anti-war protest group. I know that the pope has said he is against the war and clergy members through the years have participated in protests, but this isn't the church's chief role.

-Rudey
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  #9  
Old 04-04-2003, 08:41 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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I don't see why it has to be a unified movement to count . . . 100 people putting together care packages and writing to the troops individually does more than 20 people getting together in a church basement to do it together under the name of an "anti-war but pro-troops" movement.

Also, why are we asking this question only of the anti-war movement? Personally, I don't know of any unified pro-war groups that are doing much to support our troops either. Now granted, this may be because the great majority of people I know are anti-war (I only know a handful of people who support the war, and none of them are the type to send letters to the troops) . . . but I think those who are pro-war should be held to the same standards.

I think this is a good idea, though . . . I will bring it up to my friend so he can bring it up at his next Madison Area Peace Coalition meeting -- if they did something like this I would definitely help out.
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  #10  
Old 04-04-2003, 09:20 PM
VirtuousErudite VirtuousErudite is offline
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Rudey,

As you are well aware unsolicited care packages are a no-no, so that is something that neithier pro-war or anti-war protestors can participate in. You ask for an example of "large scale" activities that anti-war demonstrators are participating in to support the troops. I'm not sure if this is "large scale" enough for you but on my campus several people who are united under the "anti-war" umbrella pray each night at 9:00 p.m. People were ask to commit to doing it until the war ends and there were over 100 students at the meeting. I'm sure some forget but as far as I know it is still going strong.
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  #11  
Old 04-06-2003, 02:27 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
Personally, I don't know of any unified pro-war groups that are doing much to support our troops either.
Name a pro-war group I actually can name a small group of guys on my campus that call themselves "War Now" (a play of some antiwar sticker that says War No) who have been at counter-rallies and have tabled to get people to make care packages. On the whole, there is no really large pro-war group. They are still held to the same standard though.

Listen, I'm not trying to hold anyone to standards. All I am saying is that the primary function of these protestors is to be against the war. The usage of "we support the troops but not the war" is a PR maneuver. I agree that people can protest and even if i think it's ridiculous or useless or stupid, that means nothing because at the end of the day those people still can protest.

-Rudey
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  #12  
Old 04-06-2003, 02:39 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by VirtuousErudite
Rudey,

As you are well aware unsolicited care packages are a no-no, so that is something that neithier pro-war or anti-war protestors can participate in. You ask for an example of "large scale" activities that anti-war demonstrators are participating in to support the troops. I'm not sure if this is "large scale" enough for you but on my campus several people who are united under the "anti-war" umbrella pray each night at 9:00 p.m. People were ask to commit to doing it until the war ends and there were over 100 students at the meeting. I'm sure some forget but as far as I know it is still going strong.
I understand what you are trying to say but try to see what I'm saying. What did those people pray for? Did someone tell them to pray for the safety of the troops? Did they pray for anything else? How do you know what they were praying for since really praying is a silent activity? Is praying tangible? While I may think praying is great but what of those who don't believe in religion?

My roommate also goes to these prayer rallies. Their function, according to this email I am looking at, is to be "nondenominational...pray for the safety of the people of Iraq and soldiers on both side...pray for a quick end to the war."

And there are other things than care packages. Workers at a Wallmart patrol the aisles looking for certain profiles of women. They know their sons/spouses/brothers/fathers can be deployed and often these women are crying as they buy their supplies. The workers quickly move in to counsel them. This is all without any compensation. When I read this, I couldn't help but think how wonderful these people were. There is more. If you contact certain political organizations they can link you up with groups that provide support to the families of troops (counseling, tutoring for kids, etc.). If you have a real desire for this I can try and provide some contacts.

Once again people my point is simply to say that saying you "support the troops" is great PR...nothing more. This doesn't attack the right of people to protest.

-Rudey
--And I pray too
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2003, 04:12 PM
VirtuousErudite VirtuousErudite is offline
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What about people who actually do support the troops and not the war. This is their honest belief and not simply PR. I can't tell you what anyone prays about except for myself because prayer is private between the person and God. Why would you personally care what those people prayed for????? Honestly you can't worry about what anyone else is doing. What are YOU doing!!!????? Worry about yourself. Channel YOUR own PERSONAL energies. You will drive yourself nuts worrying about the actions of others.

Do you think everyone who works at Wal-Mart is pro-war. Kindness does not take a particular political affiliation. I could be just as anti-war as the next person but if I see someone crying I will stop and talk to them and comfort them. That does not make me pro-war at all.

Without giving too much detail one aspect of my job is to councel younger students on campus. Have I done it ? yes!!! Have some of the latest people I've talked to been upset over the war, or because a loved one was deployed???? Yes!!! Did I stop what I was doing just to listen, to try and make them feel better, to let them know I'm there for them??? Hell Yes!!! Does that mean I am in favor of this war? Nope. It simply makes me a human being with a heart. Don't get it twisted, there are people who definately support the troops, the family's of the troops, who just support their fellow American's in general regardless of whether they have military family/friends or not and still don't support this war.
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  #14  
Old 04-06-2003, 04:28 PM
VirtuousErudite VirtuousErudite is offline
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Supporting the Troops and Not the War

This is an article I read today and it is one of the most clear examples of someone supporting the troops and not the war. Discuss among yourselves.

CANTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- In her cluttered yellow house overlooking a serene pond, Alice Copeland Brown packs her latest box of goodies for the war front -- Oreo cookies, biscotti, Q-tips, goggles.

Then she taps out an e-mail to her son in Iraq.

"I'm going to be arrested tomorrow," she tells him.

From a tent somewhere in the desert comes the cryptic reply.

"That's nice, Mom," writes Army Maj. David Floyd. "Just keep protesting as long as you keep sending food."

The exchange occurred two weeks ago, but similar lighthearted correspondence flies back and forth between mother and son nearly every day.

Their banter masks many things: His true feelings about his mother's anti-war protests, her deepening dread about what could happen to her son the longer the war drags on.

Floyd, a 44-year-old reservist from Birmingham, Ala., is a surgeon's assistant with the Army's 3rd Medical Command. His family knows only the bare details about his deployment, that he is based in Camp Doha, Qatar, that he flies into the battlefields of Iraq to treat the wounded -- Iraqis as well as Americans.

Brown bursts with pride when she talks of her son's work. He's saving people, not killing them, she says.

But she cannot bear to watch the television images of smoldering buildings and burning oil-fields without wondering if David is near them. She wonders if he is getting any sleep. She worries about chemical weapons.

"Please wear your goggles and your gas mask every time you go out," she chides in an e-mail. "Don't breathe those fumes."

She can't stop thinking about the images of death and suffering he will carry in his head when the war ends.

And so, every day she gathers up her banners and marches to one of the busiest intersections in town, Cobbs Corner, where she brandishes her son's photograph and pleads with anyone who will listen: "My son is in the army in Iraq. Please stop this war and bring him home."

She knows that many who wave and honk see only a mother's pain.

Others see street theater. To attract attention, Brown dresses in the flowing skirts and white bonnet of a Pilgrim. She waves a colonial flag in addition to anti-war banners.

And some just see another protester who would be opposed to any war.

In a sense, Brown is all these things, this tiny 65-year-old woman with her beatific face, who crams in as many protests as possible, between picking one grandson up from high school track practice and cooking dinner for another.

But she is more.

For years, Brown worked as a software designer, writing encryption software for defense contractor Raytheon Corp. and other companies. She is proud of her computer expertise, proud of contributing to her nation's defense system, especially proud of the top-secret security clearance she held.

She is equally proud of her family's military service.

Her father was in the Coast Guard Reserve. In World War II, one uncle fought in the Battle of the Bulge, another at Iwo Jima, a third in the Solomon Islands.

"You couldn't belong to a military family prouder than ours," Brown says.

So it was natural for her son to join the service too -- and for him to thrive. He loved the marksmanship, the camaraderie, the weekends training with his unit.

Neither mother nor son ever expected him to go to war.


Brown has a son serving in the U.S. Army in the Middle East and is very active in the antiwar movement.
Scheduled to retire in April after 20 years, Floyd told his mother he had seen enough misery in Afghanistan to want to get out. Among other missions on his six-month posting in Kabul, he was one of the medics who treated the Canadians killed and wounded by an American bomber in a friendly fire incident.

Upon his return, Floyd said he was ready to settle back home with his wife and two young daughters and resume civilian life as a nurse at the Cooper Green hospital in Birmingham.

But with the call-up for Iraq duty, he was sent to a war zone again.

His latest deployment terrified his mother. And it convinced her that after years of "sideline" protesting for all sorts of causes _ going back to anti-segregation and Vietnam war protests -- it was time for her to get more deeply involved.

"I was a coward," Brown says, "until my son was sent to the front."

And so she threw herself into civil disobedience courses where she learned tips from veteran protesters: Never touch a police officer, hide small items of food in your clothing, write a lawyer's number in permanent ink on your arm.

She joined peace groups, including an Internet one called Military Families Speak Out. She started speaking at rallies, doing local radio interviews. She became a plaintiff in a lawsuit -- since dismissed -- charging that President Bush had illegally declared war without the proper consent of Congress.

But she also participated in town efforts to support the troops, going door-to-door on drives to collect war-bound goodies, and attending a town meeting to graciously accept a small symbolic flag from a veterans association. The flag, red and white with a blue star in the center, was presented to all 35 families in this town of 20,000 who have members in the military. It hangs in her front window near another small flag with the words "Stop the Slaughter."

Last month, when Bush delivered his final 48-hour deadline to Saddam Hussein, Brown decided it was time to prove she had the courage of her convictions.

At a March 19 rally in front of the John F. Kennedy Federal building in Boston, she joined dozens of protesters who blocked the entrance. In her Pilgrim outfit, Brown lay limply on the ground, eyes closed, arms crossed over her chest. It took four officers to carry her to the police van, where, along with 11 other women, she was handcuffed and whisked off to jail to be booked on charges of disorderly conduct.

"Getting arrested," Brown says, "was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life -- and the most exhilarating."

For the first time in her protesting career she had the strange sensation of being in battle herself, of being part of a unified force with a singular mission.

"I felt like a soldier in a campaign," she says. "And I thought, I'm doing what David is doing. I'm fighting a war."

Awaiting trial, she plans to take her lawyer's advice not to get arrested again until it is over.

But she still goes to rallies whenever she can. She still pickets outside recruitment centers. She still stands on Cobbs Corner every day with her flowing skirts and beaming smile, and the banner that says "Bring my son home."

And she still sends daily e-mails to her son, filling him in on her latest exploits, sending him photographs of her arrest.

From a tent in the desert comes his response:

"I'm sharing your picture with everyone. Most are not impressed until I tell them that the cookies are from you."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/04/06/one....ap/index.html you can see the pictures here
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  #15  
Old 04-06-2003, 04:43 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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The anti-war protestors form in groups and are large and well organized often. That is the sole reason why I am discussing their group/organization sentiments towards the soldiers.

The article you posted below along with many, many other examples of individuals fit the bill of people who support the troops but not the war. I agree with you on that and earlier in this thread gave the example of my roommate who did the same.

Try to see what I am saying about the group though. At no time, does the group support the troops. What would be more fair of them to say is that there are people among them with various viewpoints - many who have family and friends serving in the military and many more who support the troops along with those that don't. Does that make more sense or no?

-Rudey


Quote:
Originally posted by VirtuousErudite
What about people who actually do support the troops and not the war. This is their honest belief and not simply PR. I can't tell you what anyone prays about except for myself because prayer is private between the person and God. Why would you personally care what those people prayed for????? Honestly you can't worry about what anyone else is doing. What are YOU doing!!!????? Worry about yourself. Channel YOUR own PERSONAL energies. You will drive yourself nuts worrying about the actions of others.

Do you think everyone who works at Wal-Mart is pro-war. Kindness does not take a particular political affiliation. I could be just as anti-war as the next person but if I see someone crying I will stop and talk to them and comfort them. That does not make me pro-war at all.

Without giving too much detail one aspect of my job is to councel younger students on campus. Have I done it ? yes!!! Have some of the latest people I've talked to been upset over the war, or because a loved one was deployed???? Yes!!! Did I stop what I was doing just to listen, to try and make them feel better, to let them know I'm there for them??? Hell Yes!!! Does that mean I am in favor of this war? Nope. It simply makes me a human being with a heart. Don't get it twisted, there are people who definately support the troops, the family's of the troops, who just support their fellow American's in general regardless of whether they have military family/friends or not and still don't support this war.
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