» GC Stats |
Members: 326,157
Threads: 115,590
Posts: 2,200,676
|
Welcome to our newest member, SusanMRinke |
|
|
|
09-02-2009, 09:53 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
Good news.
The Fraternity has FINALLY posted a list of chapters and colonies to go along with the map of chapters and colonies on the Fraternity website. There is a link to the list below the map. Actually there are two complementary lists, as the chapters can be sorted by either school name or chapter/colony name.
Of course, in classic HQ tradition, the list is not free of glaring errors. The St. John's University Colony (which incidentally, I understand is the largest fraternity on the SJU campus and could well receive its charter this Fall, i.e. before the Holiday Season) is simply referred to as "St. John" ... ???. Worse yet, the Texas Woman's University Colony is referred to as "Texas Woman"!!! How anyone who was preparing such a list could dare to post it with such a ridiculous mistake is beyond me, but that is, unfortunately, typical of our HQ staff and our Website. Scholarship may well be one of the four pillars of Kappa Sigma, but one seldom sees evidence of it out of IMH or on the Website.
The list is also out of date in one happy respect. The Lake Erie College Colony, though still shown as a colony on the list, has been chartered as Pi-Chi Chapter. But again, it is just like HQ to post a list that is already out of date when it is posted. HOPEFULLY, the list will be updated frequently.
Meanwhile, the map itself STILL has not been updated since it was put online over half a year ago, and it was seriously out of date at that time. It is absolutely unbelievable that the fraternity could allow the map to go that long without being updated/corrected.
Now that the new academic year has begun, if anyone knows of any new interest groups or colonies, or of any chapter of colony closures, or of any other related news, please post same.
|
09-04-2009, 11:29 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
|
|
Brother, I'm going to say this and I am confident that you will take it in the spirit intended. There was a single misuse of alumni though I am sure if you take the time you find other grammar errors (and just errors in style such as contractions, etc.) When the time is taken to write something of this length by busy people there will be some quick additions, rewrites and simple carelessness that causes these errors. I think you can be confident that we all know the difference btw alumni, alumnus, alumna and alumnae. Instead of being helpful, as I am sure you intend it to be, it comes across as snide, condescending and detracts from your contribution.
Remembering that I was told as a child that it was not polite to correct someone else's grammar in informal, non-educational settings and that it may be poor manners to comment upon someone else's manners, I want to get back to the important points you make. I think you add some of the most interesting and informative posts regarding Kappa Sig on this site.
Dickinson is welcome news! I know that they were actively recruiting for the colony in spring of 2008 so that's relatively recent. Kappa Sigma losing a colony at Villanova, and an interest group at Syracuse- hmmm, that's unfortunate. Without knowing the details with Villanova I only hope that it was not because we were not flexible with the 50 men, the $25/25 hrs of service, or something else of that kind that can be worked towards in the long run. I would argue that large numbers are not really an accurate indicator of chapter vitality anyway. I think we are all aware of the outcomes for several large fraternities that chased numbers instead of quality. I am most concerned about the situation at Syracuse because there was no legal grounds there and I think that has been well established.
Putting aside the circumstances with the online presence (frustrating though it is), I think that our growth, support, alumni chapters, and benefits have to keep apace. I was made aware of other fraternity alumni groups being in residence at university or city clubs. I also understand that some fraternities have a program to bring in service academy graduates. These are steps that we might consider as we attempt to constantly better the fraternity. I would rather us try to be "the best fraternity" than "the most preferred", whatever that means. I believe that before that great marketing slogan that was Kappa Sigma's stated mission. We can't put the shortcomings I hear of on the SEC or the internecine struggles or even seeming non-responsiveness among leadership; the fraternity's leaders will respond to the membership if the membership makes its voice heard. If there is complacency then we deserve a complacent organization.
Last edited by Ithakappasig; 09-05-2009 at 05:57 PM.
|
09-06-2009, 12:38 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
"I think you can be confident that we all know the difference btw alumni, alumnus, alumna and alumnae. Instead of being helpful, as I am sure you intend it to be, it comes across as snide, condescending and detracts from your contribution."
No, I am not confident that "we all know the difference between alumni, alumnus". The fact of the matter is that few people who post on here DO know the difference, as the mistake is made repeatedly. So I simply took this most recent instance to point out the difference.
If you feel that the comment was snide, then you have no conception whatsoever of the meaning of that word. There was no snideness in what I said.
If you feel that the comment was condescending, then I suggest that is simply defensiveness on your part. The comment was not intended to be condescending, and I don't think it contains any condescension. The comment simply pointed out an error that is commonly made these days, but was hardly ever made a generation ago when more attention was made to language usage.
And there is a big difference between the improper use of "alumni" and other grammatical (not grammar) errors such as contractions. And that IS a condescending remark!
Whoever told you that it was impolite to correct someone's grammar in informal and informal situations was simply wrong, and besides which I do regard these postings to be educational, albeit informal. I, for one, have learned far more about what is really happening in and with the Fraternity from boards such as these (and others) than from reading the public-relations, contolled spin that IMH publishes on the website and in The Caduceus.
Last edited by stufield; 09-06-2009 at 12:44 AM.
|
09-06-2009, 01:04 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
"Dickinson is welcome news! I know that they were actively recruiting for the colony in spring of 2008 so that's relatively recent."
The chapter was restored almost a year ago.
"Kappa Sigma losing a colony at Villanova, and an interest group at Syracuse- hmmm, that's unfortunate. Without knowing the details with Villanova I only hope that it was not because we were not flexible with the 50 men, the $25/25 hrs of service, or something else of that kind that can be worked towards in the long run. I would argue that large numbers are not really an accurate indicator of chapter vitality anyway. I think we are all aware of the outcomes for several large fraternities that chased numbers instead of quality."
I agree with you about the numbers thing. This could be the subject of a larger post. I know why the SEC set the 50-man requirement, and while I understand their thinking, I don't agree with it. There are many long-running, successful Kappa Sig chapters that never would have got off the ground if the 50-man requirement had then been in force.
Actually, the 50-man requirement is not as rigid as it sounds. An alternative requirement is that a colony have the largest membership, or the same membership as the otherwise largest chapter(s), on a campus where no chapters have 50 men. And the Fraternity has relaxed the 50-man requirement in some other occasions. There are several chapters in the Omicron, Xi, and Pi letter series that were chartered with less than 50 founding initiates. Nonetheless, the 50-man requirement has scared off some interest groups that might otherwise have become successful colonies.
As for the short-lived Villanova colony, I cannot recall the specifics of why they decided they did not want to be associated with Kappa Sigma. It may not have been any one thing, or any two or three specific things, but just an overall thing. In an y case, it was unfortunate because Villanova is a school we should be at, and it would be grat to see a return of Kappa-Psi chapter there.
"I am most concerned about the situation at Syracuse because there was no legal grounds there and I think that has been well established."
You are simply wrong about this. Syracuse is a private university, and thus does have the right to control what organizations it chooses to recognize and not recognize, and would have had solid legal grounds for suing the Fraternity if it had established a prohibited organization there. The Fraternity has established/supported unrecognized groups at a number of other private institutions, and still does so. But those other schools have never taken, and perhaps never even threatened to take, legal action against the fraternity. They simply continued, and in some instances still continue, to grant recognition to the Kappa Sigma group, be it colony or chapter. But Syracuse made it very clear in no uncertain terms that it WOULD take legal action. So even though the interest group was large and strong, the Fraternity decided not to test the Syracuse administration. In the long run, such compliance with the administration may help the Fraternity be selected to expand when the school's administration is more favorably inclined to expansion.
Last edited by stufield; 09-06-2009 at 01:34 AM.
|
09-06-2009, 01:33 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
"I would rather us try to be "the best fraternity" than "the most preferred", whatever that means."
I agree wholeheartedly. "The most preferred fraternity" is a shameless marketing ploy by the Fraternity based on the fraternity's assertion that it has pledged more men in each of the last few years than any other fraternity. But even IF Kappa Sigma HAS pledged more mean than any other fraternity, that does not make Kappa Sigma "the most preferred fraternity". The true yardstick, numbers-wise, is which Fraternity INITIATES the most men. Pledge retention is the key. Any fraternity can go out and pledge a large number of men. But if the actives later decide that they don't want some of those pledges and cut them, or if the pledges decide that they made the wrong decision, and drop out, then how many were pledges in the first place means little, if anything. Despite having the largest number of pledges in a year, Kappa Sigma does NOT have the highest retention rate, the highest number of initiates, or the highest average number of men per chapter, all better indicators of preference than the number of pledges. Pledging is based on often first, often superficial impressions in a very short period of time, by rushees who are usually young, inexperienced, and highly impressionable. How many of those pledges stick around and ultimately decide to become initiates of a chapter is a far better of indicator of preference than the number of pledges the chapter takes to begin with. You may or may not have noticed that the Fraternity never publishes / publicizes / brags about its overall pledge retention / initiate numbers. Why do you suppose that is?
So much about the Fraternity's affairs these past few years has revolved around numbers: number of pledges, number of new colonies, number of charterings. But as your posting suggests, there is indeed far more to "quality" than "quantity". There are any number of fraternities with far fewer chapters, far fewer total members, and far fewer pledges that are every bit as good as, and are probably better than, Kappa Sigma in every other respect, measurable and intangible: Phi Gamma Delta, Beta Theta Pi, Phi Kappa Psi, Delta Sigma Phi are four such mid-size fraternities, and there are a number of much smaller ones, such as Theta Delta Chi, Chis Psi, Psi Upsilon, and others that are every bit as good as Kappa Sigma, are just as "preferred" or "preferable" in ways other than simply how many chapters they have or how many men they pledged or initiated.
Still, from the time of Stephen Alonzo Jackson, Kappa Sigma has been an expansionary fraternity, and where the Fraternity has most recently expanded to and where it will or might expand to next are interesting topics. In the Northeast, I have heard that we have new interest groups at Rochester Institute of Technology and Hofstra University, two schools at which our chapters (Omicron-Alpha and Nu-Eta, respectively) became inactive three or four years ago. So it would be terrific to return to both those schools.
|
09-07-2009, 09:08 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
|
|
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grammar (Note "the way in which grammar is used." Like "spelling (n) error", "computer error" it still works out and people get away with it. Horror of horrors! ) It's not of importance to me Stufield, I just thought you would be interested. I considered fraternity forums an informal and youthful exchange. I read Greekchat posts in the manner I believe they are intended-- as informal. Perhaps I am wrong and if so I apologize to readers. (People, you are going to have to forgive me but I'm not going to edit forum postings except to add info nor will I pay much attention to much beyond the substance of what is being said.) I don't believe continuing the rest of that line of conversation is constructive and can be characterized as either a difference of opinion or misunderstanding. Brothers have those.
I strongly agree with most of (Stufield's) latest assertions and positions so I won't comment on them or restate them. Hopefully others others read those posts. I also appreciate the additional information about Hofstra and RIT though I have mixed feelings, to generously put it, about the news.
IMO Kappa Sig is an elite, truly national fraternity (Kappa Sigma has been the quintessential Greek letter fraternity) that is in danger of falling well behind a half dozen peers due to recent internal issues that are easily addressed by capable leadership. Some bad ideas have been circulating about lowering standards, trying to be everything to everyone, and being hip and new. In what has been a decade of change, these changes have not been good. We really need greater selectivity and a stronger identity rooted in the past. The last thing we should be is a fraternity for men that might not otherwise join a fraternity!
Kappa Sigma is obviously still recovering; it is not what it was prior to the split with the foundation and the end of the Charlottesville conclaves. (Why we have a $6 million HQ if we don't use it for conclaves like Kappa Sig did in the old HQ does not make sense to me.) Petty seemingly politics have made for stagnation and misdirected effort. Yet the level of criticism that you (Bro. Stufield) believe is due Kappa Sigma or even the SEC is beyond what I think is due. Regardless of variations in perspectives I hope it encourages brothers to consider what improvements are possible and how we can make them happen.
I do not feel that Kappa Sigma should be in terms of quality lumped in with the group of fraternities that you say "are every bit as good as, and are probably better than, Kappa Sigma in every other respect, measurable and intangible". I say this not just because of fraternity pride but because I am very knowledgeable of a number of those fraternities and have been in a position to judge. I think most impartial observers would only see two or three of those fraternities at Kappa Sigma's level frankly.
We may also have a different read on the the authority of Syracuse or any private university to curtail expansion.
I'm a freshly minted member of the bar and I confess to not being as sharp as I might in some areas of the law but I hope I didn't let any ruling pass me regarding a private organization's ability to limit the Freedom of Association of another private organization. You may be speaking in practical terms. (This may be a topic worth being careful about even on an informal forum.)
In some ways the battles between universities and fraternities in the U.S. have hardly abated from the fever pitch of 90's. Universities have undertaken interesting and innovative ways to stop fraternities from being active. The approaches however, even with the most aggressively anti-fraternity administrators, have been aimed at the student, not the fraternity (insofar as they have not banned national fraternity offices from dealing with students independently.)
The university can (and often will) cut off access to campus facilities and in rare cases get incoming students to sign agreements that they will not participate in fraternities. The last step as a compulsory act hasn't been around since the clause in the 1998 Higher Education Amendments, (part of Public Law 105-244) which protects students right to associate with fraternities without fear of retribution from colleges that receive federal funding. This has yet to be tested in a court of law by either side but since that time colleges have not attempted to kick students out of college who participate in fraternities off campus. ( I think Congress owed us something after the debacle that was CRA 64 which impinged on freedom of religion and association as it applied to fraternities.)
Apparently even the most stridently anti-fraternity administrators have considered the can of worms they would open by interfering with off campus student activities. Even Amherst has stopped harassing its students in fraternities. Amherst still asks potential Residence Counselors for a list of organizations they are active in, with the implication that if you are a member and say you are in a fraternity you will not be selected. It was an issue a year ago when underground Chi Psi members were found to be Amherst RC's but the students were not fired or otherwise disciplined.
At schools that have driven GLO's underground have both sides have found a modus vivendi it seems: if students don't flaunt organizational membership on campus the administrators will ignore or unhappily accept the organization's existence.
I contacted people I know that work for Kappa Sig and they have not heard of the situation at Syracuse as described. If Syracuse is taking a new and unlawful approach, directly challenging fraternities' off campus, student to fraternity activities I cannot help but think we would her about it. Perhaps it was a more complicated situation.
Kappa Sigma should shy away from certain expansion and reestablishment projects. Among the expansion we probably shouldn't encourage are new or renewed chapters that act as unofficial ethnic fraternities that take the rejected overflow of the official ethnic ones (a danger in the Northeast especially). Nor should Kappa Sigma look to a return of chapters that had repeated and serious problems with poor behavior towards women or violence. At the same time returning a charter to a committed new group should be encouraged and not be used as an reason to pile on exorbitant fees for "reviews" or penalize unrelated parties for the sins of a few bad apples.
At any rate Kappa Sigma should grow and we shall grow, whether by the methods I discussed or better ideas. That doesn't mean we should avoid the best schools and best students to reach for the lowest hanging fruit. It also doesn't mean that growth should be the only or even the chief priority. And Kappa Sigma must make its communication, student and alumni social and business networking and event opportunities (and other fraternity benefits) the best offered if it is to truly be the "most preferred". That's a message worth getting across to leadership.
Last edited by Ithakappasig; 10-03-2009 at 04:10 AM.
|
09-25-2009, 02:23 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 1
|
|
hey everybody, here's an update about the anchorage, alaska colony. we were established back in october 2007. right now we are planning installment/initiation for this november a little over two years from the date th colony was set up. we are currently at 30 members, the largest fraternity at the university of alaska anchorage.
|
09-25-2009, 05:26 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
Thanks for the report, and terrific news. Be sure to post again once you know your colony's installation date and the Greek letters that have been designated for your chapter. There are only two more chapters to be chartered in the Pi series, and I understand from a post a few days ago by chicostateksig that the University of California at San Diego colony is being chartered this weekend with the second last name in that series, Pi-Psi. So your chapter will either be Pi-Omega or early in the Rho series, if one or more other colonies is or are chartered before yours (not counting, of course, colonies of former chapters, which will be rechartered, not chartered, and retain the chapter's prior Greek letter name).
|
09-30-2009, 01:51 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
Recolonization of Gamma-Xi Chapter at Denison University, located in central Ohio.
Possibly also recolonization of Theta-Delta Chapter at Willamette University, located in Salem, Oregon? If no actual recolonization yet, it certainly is in the works.
Those are, or would be, significant recolonizations of once-strong chapters at two quite well-known private universities.
Anybody know of any other new colonizations or interest groups this Fall?
|
09-30-2009, 09:27 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New England
Posts: 9,328
|
|
I know there's a colony at American International College in Springfield, MA. However I haven't heard any word recently on the colony or its status.
|
09-30-2009, 07:15 PM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSigkid
I know there's a colony at American International College in Springfield, MA. However I haven't heard any word recently on the colony or its status.
|
Yes, that colony was established last Spring. So it is not a new one this year.
|
10-09-2009, 02:42 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
|
|
Recolonization of Gamma-Xi Chapter at Denison University, recolonization of Theta-Delta Chapter at Willamette University sounds wonderful. Good to hear! I'm sure they will make it happen.
|
11-08-2009, 12:07 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 162
|
|
It is now into the third month of the academic year, and the Fraternity STILL has not updated the map or the list of chapters and colonies on the Website. Both were out of date when added to the Website, and neither has been updated since. It's really pathetic.
Notwithstanding the lack of any assistance from the website, there is some news to report:
Brooklyn College has finally been installed as Pi-Phi chapter. That chapter designation was assigned to the colony prior to its anticipated chartering date. Some problems arose (which, of course, the Fraternity is not revealing) which caused the chartering to be postponed. Meanwhile, the Lake Erie College and UCSD colonies were chartered as Pi-Chi and Pi-Psi chapters. Then, last weekend, Brooklyn College was belatedly installed.
Sacred Heart University is being installed this weekend as Pi-Omega chapter, giving the Fraternity another badly-needed active chapter in the Northeast, where Kappa Sig is seriously underrepresented.
So that is it for the Pi series of chapters. The next new chapter (as opposed to a restored chapter) should be Rho-Alpha. It could be the St. John's University colony, which apparently has been prospering, or perhaps CSU Northridge, which is presently the "oldest" colony.
Neither the recolonization of Gamma-Xi Chapter at Denison University or the recolonization of Theta-Delta Chapter at Willamette University, referred to in previous posts on this thread, appears to have got off the ground, or at least not as yet. The Fraternity did have staff at Denison. But perhaps they could not recruit enough sufficiently interested young men to start the colony.
On the other hand, Gamma-Nu chapter at Washburn University, located in Topeka, Kansas, HAS been recolonized, which is excellent news. Disappointingly, however, it is the only presently dormant chapter that has been recolonized so far this academic year.
New colony at High Point University, located in High Point, NC, a small, but growing private university with a small but growing Greek system. Kappa Sigma should do well there. The High Point colony increases the Fraternity's already strong presence in North Carolina (11 active chapters).
New colony at Illinois State University, a school Kappa Sigma should have been at 30 or 40 years ago. ISU only seems able to support a limited number of fraternities. Several fraternities prosper there, but several others have closed or suffer from low membership. Kappa Sigma is weak in Illinois, with only one other presently active chapter, Alpha-Lambda at the University of Illinois. So the Order badly needs a presence at Illinois State. But success there is by no means a sure thing.
New colony at Texas A&M - Corpus Christi. This is another growing school with a growing Greek system. Despite its general strength in Texas, Kappa Sigma was not among the initial fraternities there, such as Phi Delta Theta and Beta Theta Pi. So, like Illinois State, this is an "its about goddamm time" colonization. Hopefully, the colony will thrive.
Most recent colony is at Central Washington University, located in Ellensburg. This is a classic example of Kappa Sigma's present expansion policy of establishing colonies in response to groups which approach it, regardless of how improbable the chances of success might be on the often-obscure campuses where those groups are located, rather than proactively seeking to colonize at the 100+ schools that already have well-established Greek systems where the Order is not presently represented. This has led to colonies in the past four years at, among others, such schools as Southwest Oklahoma State, Eastern Oregon, Carroll College, Southwestern College, West Liberty State, Gonzaga, Wayne State College, West Florida, Texas-Brownsville, Southern Indiana, Oklahoma Panhandle State, UBC Okanagan, Bellarmine, Notre Dame, and, most recently before Central Washington, Tusculum College, all of which had virtually NO chance whatsoever of succeeding, and all of which, predictably, closed after brief existences. Kappa Sigma does not have a strong presence in the State of Washington, with only two active chapters, Beta-Psi at UW and Gamma-Mu at WSU. Neither chapter is very strong on its campus, although Beta-Psi has at least grown from near-extinction a few years ago to a mid-size chapter on the UW campus. Gamma-Mu used to be strong chapter at Wazzou, but was closed a few years ago for CoC violations, and then subsequently restored, but still struggles with relatively low membership. So a third chapter in Washington would be a big boost to the Fraternity. Eastern Washington University, located in Cheney, just a few miles west of Spokane, already has a well-established Greek system that includes Sig Ep, Sigma Nu, Beta Theta Pi, Phi Delta Theta, Delta Chi, and Pi Lambda Phi chapters. Central Washington, on the other had, has no fraternities or sororities, and no Greek culture, just as Gonzaga does not. So where does Kappa Sigma colonize. First at GU and now CWU!!! But if, for instance, the Phi Delts and the Betas, who, in addition to having chapters at UW and WSU, also have other Washington active chapters at the University of Puget Sound (where our own chapter closed about 12 years ago) and Whitman College, as well as EWU as aforesaid, have not yet expanded to Central, what would make anyone think that Kappa Sigma could do so successfully? Obviously, I hope that the CWU colony DOES succeed. But I suspect that this colony is destined for the same fate as the Gonzaga colony. Meanwhile, we will continue to remain unrepresented at Eastern Washington, a campus that does support Greek system.
One attractive feature of Central Washington University is that Ellensburg is located on I90, the highway along which the UW and WSU chapters run the game ball for the Apple Cup rivalry football game, one of the Fraternity's longest running (no pun intended) and most successful charitable events. So a CWU chapter could contribute significant support to that event.
Unfortunately, at least two colonies appear to have closed since the academic year began, the aforesaid Tusculum College and UC Santa Cruz.
Some active chapters have closed also, but since the Fraternity never announces closures and simply quietly deletes them from the chapter list, and since, as aforesaid, the chapter list has not been updated in months, I ma not sure how many or which ones. Two that I believe have closed are John Carroll University and the University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh, the former perhaps for a CoC violation of some sort, the latter probably from low membership (it struggled with low membership throughout its existence). But this is just semi-educated speculation on my part, admittedly a contradiction in terms.
If anyone can confirm, clarify, contradict, and/or otherwise add to any of the foregoing, or provide any other information not mentioned above, such as where we presently have an interest group or are actively seeking to return a dormant chapter or expand to a campus where we've not yet been, please do post.
Chicostate and Ithaca, do you guys have anything to add?
.
|
11-08-2009, 12:23 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New England
Posts: 9,328
|
|
Thanks for the update. It's nice to have another chapter in Connecticut; if I have any time post-law school, I'd like to get back into volunteering (I served as an AAA for a couple of years after college).
|
11-08-2009, 01:15 AM
|
GreekChat Member
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 4,419
|
|
Just confirming that UC Santa Cruz no longer has a Kappa Sigma colony.
__________________
On the heart of each sister
lies one 0-----,, that binds us
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|