Sean Bell's Killers (NYC Cops) Walk

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I see where you are going but you kind of figured that out from a few factorsWhat this article suggests, that sure not only have they fired and shot unarmed civilians , but they were poor shots while doing it....sounds like somebody's police force needs more time on the range and less time on the streets

I have to guess that you missed the following:
“The data shows that the New York City Police Department is the most restrained in the country,” said Paul J. Browne, the department’s chief spokesman. “What these reports don’t show are the thousands of incidents where police were confronted with armed criminals, and they did not return fire.”
John C. Cerar, a retired deputy inspector who was the commander of the Police Department’s firearms training section from 1985 to 1994, said the accuracy rate is comparable to that of many other major police departments. In some cases, it is better.
In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year, they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said.
So far this year the hit ratio in Los Angeles is 31 percent, with 74 of 237 bullets fired by officers hitting the target.
In the New York reports, the hit ratio of officers who committed suicide with a firearm — and, therefore, hit their target 100 percent of the time — is included when the overall average is calculated, bringing it up.
Forty-six police officers committed suicide in the 11 years from 1996 through 2006, an average of four a year. The highest number came in 2003, when seven officers committed suicide."
And of course, there is always the other side of the coin:
http://www.nyclu.org/node/1756

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by jon1856

I have to guess that you missed the following:
“The data shows that the New York City Police Department is the most restrained in the country,” said Paul J. Browne, the department’s chief spokesman. “What these reports don’t show are the thousands of incidents where police were confronted with armed criminals, and they did not return fire.”
John C. Cerar, a retired deputy inspector who was the commander of the Police Department’s firearms training section from 1985 to 1994, said the accuracy rate is comparable to that of many other major police departments. In some cases, it is better.
In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year, they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said.
So far this year the hit ratio in Los Angeles is 31 percent, with 74 of 237 bullets fired by officers hitting the target.
In the New York reports, the hit ratio of officers who committed suicide with a firearm — and, therefore, hit their target 100 percent of the time — is included when the overall average is calculated, bringing it up.
Forty-six police officers committed suicide in the 11 years from 1996 through 2006, an average of four a year. The highest number came in 2003, when seven officers committed suicide."
And of course, there is always the other side of the coin:
http://www.nyclu.org/node/1756

Son, when you have 5 people who are unarmed who died in a hail of bullets (with some reloading to do the deed) over a period of 10 years that is not called restraint. And what doies suicide have to do with them hitting their target?

[macallan25]

Is 5 people over 10 years really a lot? I'm being serious here. There's no telling how many situations the Police deal with each year involving possible use of deadly force.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Is 5 people over 10 years really a lot? I'm being serious here. There's no telling how many situations the Police deal with each year involving possible use of deadly force.

Mack...in NYC...or anyplace for 5 people to die in the same manner...unarmed and a hail of bullets....yeah...I think something is wrong with that.

Especially if going by what jon just posted and verified...yup.

Something isn't right.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Something isn't right.

I do agree with you on this point; something is not right.
Anyone notice when this became more about Rev Al than Sean Bell?
Everyone I deal with (family, friends, co-workers,business associates et al) all say that this is now all about Rev Al. Perhaps has been so for awhile now.

Think about the comments reported the other day.
"We are doing this to get the attention of the Federal officials"

Now since when does Rev Al not have anyone's phone number to arrange a meeting?

Since when does he not have to ability to have a press conference at the drop of a quarter?

This is all about his face time.

He gets his face in the cameras.

So the Civil Right section of the Dept of Justice has to say, in public that they are meeting.

And Rev Al gets to make sure that he gets face time with all the politicians.

And remember, we have an election coming up. Who ever the two are, they will be coming to his court for face time.

And Sean and his family and friends are just now tools to be used.

I find that a shame.

And remember, even if the DoJ does start a file, nothing is going to happen for awhile.

This thread will have to be dug up.

Just MVHO.
P.S.: Rev Al said that he will shut down the NYC again in 7-10 days.
Next Wednesday looks good.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by jon1856

I do agree with you on this point; something is not right.
Anyone notice when this became more about Rev Al than Sean Bell?
Everyone I deal with (family, friends, co-workers,business associates et al) all say that this is now all about Rev Al. Perhaps has been so for awhile now.

Think about the comments reported the other day.
"We are doing this to get the attention of the Federal officials"

Now since when does Rev Al not have anyone's phone number to arrange a meeting?

Since when does he not have to ability to have a press conference at the drop of a quarter?

This is all about his face time.

He gets his face in the cameras.

So the Civil Right section of the Dept of Justice has to say, in public that they are meeting.

And Rev Al gets to make sure that he gets face time with all the politicians.

And remember, we have an election coming up. Who ever the two are, they will be coming to his court for face time.

And Sean and his family and friends are just now tools to be used.

I find that a shame.

And remember, even if the DoJ does start a file, nothing is going to happen for awhile.

This thread will have to be dug up.

Just MVHO.
P.S.: Rev Al said that he will shut down the NYC again in 7-10 days.
Next Wednesday looks good.

it's only about AL if you LET IT be about Bell.

I am not sure how old you are Jon, but this is the same tactics that Civil Rights Marchers used back in the 60's when there was injustice, people marched and protested to make sure that they were not forgotten. Altho I disagree with some of what Rev Al does, I feel that this time he is on point. Why? Because Sean Bell and co. could so easliy become back page news especially and unfortunately with their background. And if that happens, it could happen again and frankly, people are tired...liek I said earlier, 5 in 10 and something is NOT right and the only thing that happens is the city awards the family millions....those milliosn aint gonna bring that loved one back...if anything, that money is hush money which allows it to happen again and again. And it's time for some accountability...remember what I said awhile back, out of all these cases...only ONE cop was ever convicted. My co workers and I were talking about this today at work and some of them are still pissed and we keep coming back to teh basic question: How can some men get gunned down by 50 bullets and no one is punished?

We don't like the answer that is given and the more people continue to be silent the more it will keep happening...Al is doing the smart thing similar like what he did in Jena...using a non violent form of keeping Bell in the news until something is done to correct this atrocity

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

How can some men get gunned down by 50 bullets and no one is punished?

Because they were tried in a court, rather than in a "what sounds right/wrong" tribunal. I have no idea if what they did was justified, but there aren't any laws against shooting too much, that I know of. Thus, if they were justified in shooting initially, and there is no evidence that the situation, in their minds, changed, what can be said? I think it is a questionable situation, but I don't necessarily think it is a miscarriage of justice.

[DSTCHAOS]

Eh...if the ruling won't be overturned, this is why there are civil cases or whatever avenue they choose.

This is far from over and how far this goes is not based on "what sounds right/wrong," either.

[KSig RC]

Seriously, guys - in a city of 8.2 million people and with a relatively high crime rate (compared to national averages), we can't use 5 to show any kind of endemic or systematic problem with law enforcement.

We'd likely be much better off focusing on each individual case on its own (de-)merits - work forward, instead of backward from a conclusion, as it seems much stronger in this sort of situation.

[DaemonSeid]

It's not about stats or averages...it's about that after the first time, incidents like these were not supposed to happen again.....8.2 million or 820,000...

Still something wrong with just 5...only FIVE in the same part of the country who dies in the same manner after facing off with cops!!

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

It's not about stats or averages...it's about that after the first time, incidents like these were not supposed to happen again.....8.2 million or 820,000...

Still something wrong with just 5...only FIVE in the same part of the country who dies in the same manner after facing off with cops!!

This mantra of "ONE IS TOO MANY!" is kind of a strawman, though, isn't it?

The main issue is either:

1 - every person should be treated with dignity by police, including following standard and fair established police practices; or

2 - there is an endemic/systemic problem with the NYPD.

The "ONE IS TOO MANY!" mantra ONLY applies to number one, because in order to prove number two, you cannot ignore the "stats and averages" you've so derisively shooed away.

We don't know, for instance, whether police in Mobile, AL or DC or Vail, CO have the same problems, or whether this is random variation, or the same two dudes causing problems - instead, we should focus on issue number one.

To do otherwise invites those "stats and averages" into the discussion - and, as you've (indirectly) noted, those numbers do not bode well for change to issue number one.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

This mantra of "ONE IS TOO MANY!" is kind of a strawman, though, isn't it?

The main issue is either:

1 - every person should be treated with dignity by police, including following standard and fair established police practices; or

2 - there is an endemic/systemic problem with the NYPD.

The "ONE IS TOO MANY!" mantra ONLY applies to number one, because in order to prove number two, you cannot ignore the "stats and averages" you've so derisively shooed away.

We don't know, for instance, whether police in Mobile, AL or DC or Vail, CO have the same problems, or whether this is random variation, or the same two dudes causing problems - instead, we should focus on issue number one.

To do otherwise invites those "stats and averages" into the discussion - and, as you've (indirectly) noted, those numbers do not bode well for change to issue number one.

Not strawman at all...you get the stats on how many UNARMED people have died in a 10 year period in a hail of bullets by cops and let's compare notes....but all one has to do is use common sense to know this is not something that happens 'yearly' and we definently do not hear about this in the news...often enough were we can say....oh this is a regular occurance that goes on in other large metropolises...don't confuse that with people who get shot by cops either...we are talking about 5 circumstances that happened that for some God forsaken reason keeps happening in the SAME city...

At least 4 of the victims had no criminal records!!!

Damn I hate repeating myself....

[DSTCHAOS]

Unless this is entertaining you, Daemonseid, why waste your time explaining this stuff?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Unless this is entertaining you, Daemonseid, why waste your time explaining this stuff?

I just realized today I was repeating myself....hehehe...besides I was bored at work....heh

[DSTCHAOS]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/...arpton_s_money