Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Plenty of great people had slaves.

I understood the point.

"Born knowing." Give me a break.

[agzg]

Pledges, new members, etc should know our values, even know our ritual, without knowing that they know it. It should, and sad to say that I do drop the ball on this quite often, be such a part of our being that we display our purpose and our ritual in everything that we do.

I'm getting sick of this "I'm from the south, I know values" conversation. Just as many people in the North have strong values very similar to yours. Just as many people in the South lack values. Everyone can benifit from diving deeper into our ritual. We had a "know your ritual" semester, where our ritual chair went up at every meeting and we talked about everything from the spiritual aspect to the practical aspect of our ritual. It made a huge difference in how we as sisters treated one another and how we treated our new members.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Just as many people in the South lack values.

**cough** Britney Spears **cough**

Excuse me.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

There's a lot of logical fallacies in comparing this statement with shinerbocks.

Exactly. I was pointing out his logical fallacies. I stand behind what I said: just because someone is great and he/she participated in an event that is unrelated to his/her greatness, that doesn't mean the event is great, or even acceptable. Just because great people went through the old Greek system, that doesn't make the old system great... or acceptable.

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Whose eyes? Learn how to write.

Perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills. I said, "...analyze what your founders valued. I would be willing to bet that their values were incorporated into the ritual." I don't think I'm the one who needs to learn something here. (In other words, the answer to your question is YOUR FOUNDERS.)

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Jesus Christ. We are southern gentleman, we are born knowing the values.

Funny... most of the southern gentlemen I know, especially the ones who would complain about things such as the de-Christianizing of rituals, generally refrain from using the Lord's name in vain. I guess you weren't born knowing that particular value.

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Learning values from ritual to create brotherhood is not going to work.

Therein lies your problem. I'll ask you the same question I asked shiner. What, if (by your own admission) it isn't your ritual, unites the brotherhood?

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

**cough** Britney Spears **cough**

Oh, that's cold.
(Which sorority is she in? Oh, never mind.)

[agzg]

Maybe to be the one with values you have to go to college.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Maybe to be the one with values you have to go to college.

But... gasp... that would imply that values are learned and not something you're just born with!

[shinerbock]

Alright, I've been gone all day, I'll try and catch up. As for the "southern mansion" style, what the hell do I know about architecture. <--I don't even know if I spelled it right, thats how little I know. Basically I was saying that in the south you're expected to build nice houses, so you cant just throw up anything.


Back to the hazing, first to kyle. Yeah, that breakfast thing is not only incredibly safe, but fun too. None of the pledges have ever had any pause, and it really sinks in with them. We do it at a point in pledgeship in which they're not working hard on the house, and naturally they've come to feel its our house they are cleaning. Our point is, that it is there house too, and it is an illustration about how their efforts effect not only the brotherhood, but their pledge class. As I've said before, they're not eating like dogs off the floor. If you think its wrong, good for you, but it works, and the pledges understand what we're saying, and its usually funny for everyone involved.

Now to the next young lady who said something...the slavery argument is ridiculous and not close to valid. Many of yall on this site act like hazing lowers a persons value and makes them insensitive to others, damages their self esteem, etc... My point was that many great men in this country went through "purposeful" hazing, and I imagine we'll see the shift of the quality of our leaders. Note, I'm not saying that abolishing hazing is going to directly lead to a crappier society, I'm saying that this entire system of zero personal responsibility is gonna catch up with us. We don't make people earn anything, and I really think my generation is going to have less men of character than my fathers. However, hopefully we're still building them down here.

As for purposeful hazing, heres what it does. It gives you a role in your pledge class. It lets you know that you are not independent of the other guys. You must depend on each other to get through, and when you drop the ball, the rest of your pledge class is punished. Our pledges are punished together, and they're praised together. For those who don't understand the concept of responsibility, I'll tell you what this does. It establishes a bond among the pledge class, with each individual realizing he must trust his friends, and also do his individual part. Thus, when these guys become brothers, they have specific times they can reference, and say "I remember when we had to do _______, and I was totally dependant on all of yall, and all of you came through." You don't get that when you simply walk through pledgeship. The strongest bonds come from adversity, if you don't believe, ask veterans. Before somebody stupid asks, I'm not saying we are building bonds that strong, but the concept still works. That is the reason we "haze" our pledges. They begin pledgeship as confident kids who have a lot going for them, but who havent put it together. When they are intiated, they are tougher, have more confidence, have respect and trust for the brothers, and have respect and trust for the guys in their pledge class. Somebody, please tell me how that is bad for the greek system.

[agzg]

Oh gosh forgive me, that was stupid. Maybe only the ones with values are the ones that get to git themselves an education. Is it like a special question part on your college applications?

"Do you have values? If no, throw your application in the trash right now. If yes, continue on to question 2"

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Alright, I've been gone all day, I'll try and catch up. As for the "southern mansion" style, what the hell do I know about architecture. <--I don't even know if I spelled it right, thats how little I know.

I don't know the correct answer either. That's why I asked the question. The pic you posted looks somewhat like the Delt Shelter at my Alma Mater which opened in 1970 and sleeps 80 or so which would make it a little smaller.

Delta Tau Delta Shelter, Ohio University, Athens, Ohio

Obviously, the picture is cropped, and it is built down in to a hill, so there are a couple of levels above the street and (I think) three below.

[shinerbock]

I dunno much about it, its KA's new house, the most recent house completed at AU. I don't know how many it sleeps, it is pretty large and sits kind of up on a hill. KA has about 130 or so members, but I'm not sure how many of their guys live in house.

[bows&toes]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

I'm not sure where in the process they are, but I hung out with a bunch of Auburn Sigma Nus at our national convention in '04. There were a lot of them there to support/lobby for a measure that would have lessened the number of men who would be qualified to be legacies. At any rate, I do get the feeling that they are a more traditional chapter in terms of intake. However, they were a Rock Chapter this year -- that means in the top 8 nationally (my chapter was an honorable mention after only existing for 4 years, but I digress).

To win the Rock Chapter award, they must have been participating in our national programming. I know for a fact that our Oklahoma State chapter has adopted the national programming, and they're top 8 as well.

At any rate, hazing has nothing to do with success. My chapter had the advantage of being able to start from scratch. In the 4 years since we got our charter, we're really on the cusp of being competitive on the same level as Oklahoma State or Auburn, and we don't haze at all. I know for a fact that one other organization hazes (my younger brother is a member), and I have strong suspicions as to the rest of the chapters on that campus. If Sigma Nu at my alma mater is able to be that different, and still get the best grades, be a dominant force in student government, compete strongly in greek week, and excel in intermurals without hazing, I tend to think that it can be done anywhere.

The South is a very traditional place, and Oklahoma tends to be a strange hybrid of northern/southern lifestyle. I think that you'd agree shinerbock that tradition is something that you can't just change overnight at southern schools. That said, I think that we have a definite movement away from hazing, and in the South, though that movement is lagging behind other places, we're still moving away.

hilarious. I am not the one to open my mouth about these things, but you are full of crap. I know for a fact, that you are dead wrong about atleast one of those SN chapters. I will not say which because this board is filled with toolbags that will probably call their nationals. The chapter I speak of hazes, and hazes very hard.

[jon1856]

Shiner-". The strongest bonds come from adversity, if you don't believe, ask veterans. Before somebody stupid asks, I'm not saying we are building bonds that strong, but the concept still works."

Since when does College Llife come even close to Close Combat?

IMHO-Never should.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

hilarious. I am not the one to open my mouth about these things, but you are full of crap. I know for a fact, that you are dead wrong about atleast one of those SN chapters. I will not say which because this board is filled with toolbags that will probably call their nationals. The chapter I speak of hazes, and hazes very hard.

I didn't deny that they do -- as Shiner is so fond of saying, brush up on those reading comprehension skills. I merely said that there seems to be a movement away from hazing, even in the South. One of those chapters of which I have pretty recent/direct knowledge, has in fact backed off a bit, or even a lot. I'm know that there are still quite a few chapters, especially in the South which have not yet adopted national programming, and still are 100% traditional. I never denied that. I don't believe it'll work for many chapters to change overnight and still be able to maintain their elite status. On the other hand, they're taking a gamble in even existing at all.

In terms of numbers, our Kansas chapter was a good example of our National's willingness to close an elite chapter. That, or Arkansas. Vanderbilt wasn't doing too poorly when they were closed. There have been quite a few others, but it's too early in the morning. At this time, these chapters face a choice. Either change, or sooner or later, they will be forced to change. Many have seen the light, and are taking measured steps towards change.

[Elephant Walk]

In terms of numbers, our Kansas chapter was a good example of our National's willingness to close an elite chapter. That, or Arkansas.

I don't know if I would consider that Kansas chapter anywhere close to elite, and I know the Arkansas one wasn't. It was clearly old row, but at the time of closing it was filled with toolbags whose only claim to fame was winning like 5 straight intermural titles. The fraternity after disbanding became [edit], and it made even more sense.

(ktsnake: let's not single out active groups with unsubstantiated attacks, k?)