Bush Wins

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by KSig RC
The geopolitical assumptions for starting the war were solid...

You got that right. The reason why I don't respect the opinion of most (not all, but most) people who object to this war is because they just too freaking stupid to even understand the basic geopolitics involved. All that you have to do is look at a map. Its that simple. Look at a map before you start concocting weak and absurd conspiracy theories about the war.

The American Left fumbled the ball... again. They had a chance to raise some important issues, but instead they chose to be demagogic and abandon all of the principles of classical liberalism. The Republicans were not much better, but the faction of the American Right that set out to demonize Kerry and Edwards was far more isolated, and far more limited in access to the media. The Left chose to demonize their political opponents in a way that would have made Joseph Goebbels envious. Now they get to wallow in their pity, while they advertise their lack of basic democratic principles.

I'm not happy about how inept and pathetic the DNC is. I believe in competition, and the Democratic Party is just not competing. They offer no new ideas, and no clear vision. Its either be "Republican Lite" or "Green Party Lite." The DNC has to come up with something better. They'll be able to make a challenge for the Presidency in 2012 or 2016. Something tells me that they'll just offer more of the same.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AGDee
The general concensus, even among the Republican reps there, was that the Republicans are going to have to move toward the middle if the country is going to be unified.

I believe that they are wrong. Republicans don't have to move anywhere to unify this country. In one year, this country will be far more unified. Why? Economic prosperity.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by kddani
ETA: an elected official is supposed to represent ALL of his constitutents and look out for ALL of their needs. He or she is NOT elected just to represent the people that voted for him.

That's your opinion, not a fact.

Many political scientists study the approach to representing a constituency. To simplify it, there are basically three models. There is the "representative" model, to which you allude. There is the "trustee" model, which is where a politician does what he thinks is right, and then lets his record be subject to scrutiny during the next election. And then there is the "politico" model which is a hybrid of the two.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AGDee
The DNC is a politically staged event, not your average Joe Democrat on the street. After a vicious primary cycle, they try to bring anybody who ran earlier, to be on board with them, in hopes of getting their supporters to support the presidential candidate. In fact, the whole DNC was a big pep rally (at least the things they showed on TV). Everything at a Convention is orchestrated.

You have the DNC confused with its convention. DNC = Democratic National Committee. They are not an event, but an organization.

[AGDee]

I prefer civil rights to economic prosperity, personally. While I need enough money to survive, I value other things more, so economic prosperity isn't something that will help swing me to the Republican side and I don't think I'm alone in that. It will bring some people over, but I can't be bought.

Yes, I was talking about the Democratic National Convention, you're correct. Rudey and I were talking about the Convention and I was lazy and used an acronym.

I share kddani's view of a "representative model", which is one of the biggest reasons that I didn't care for Bush as a candidate. That man definitely has his convictions and beliefs and will always make his decisions based on them. Those convictions and beliefs are miles apart from mine. He leads from a "trustee model". Thanks for giving me names for these models as I've had this debate before with others, without have specific model names.

Dee

[PhiPsiRuss]

You may prefer civil rights to economic prosperity, but try to have civil rights without economic prosperity. Economic prosperity isn't "buying people." Its how society progresses, and its why we don't live in caves anymore.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Originally posted by KSig RC
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA - I'll keep it shorter:


1 - Gays need rights 'given' to them (or more likely 'protected') because YOU ALREADY HAVE THEM - giving them to someone else is NOT PERSECUTION toward you. Jesus.


2 - Nothing that was given to you by (your) God should EVER BE LEGALLY PROTECTED. Our nation was founded on this principal at its heart. If you put on the tinfoil hat and say "it's not in the constitution!" I will mop the floor with you. [note that this is slight hyperbole, as you can claim you were 'given' your life, and obviously murder should still be illegal]


3 - Christians have never been persecuted, and they do NOT have the 'right' to enact prayers in school except for on their own time w/out intruding on others. What you claim is akin to saying whites are being persecuted b/c they can't have their own water fountains, separate from blacks, anymore.

oh holy geez......

when i was discussing the whole gay thing, i was ATTEMPTING to explain the whole Christian viewpoint thing....but being a Christian who is against the ammendment, i may be a little off. that was my understanding, thanks. from what i understand, handing over that divine right (note, not civil right, according to conservs/Christians/what have you) to someone who lives in an "abomination" is a hard thing for those who are for the ammendment to accept. i am NOT FOR THE AMMENDMENT. I VOTED NO. JESUS, yourself. may i quote myself here for a moment?

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.

i believe that my thoughts and beliefs are protected b/c this is the USA. everyone else's free speech, etc. is protected....i think i'm included in that. just another off handed, random remark for ya, just to throw that in there. my post which started this whole discovery of my idioticness was only to shine some light on another viewpoint, but not necessarily totally my own. if that makes any sense.......

and yes, believe it or not, mr. niceguy, Christians have been treated like crap a lot in this country. i don't think anyone would have a isht if someone put up a chinese proverb in court houses, but b/c someone put up the 10 commandments, well HEAVEN FORBID. if it has something to do with the Bible, ppl can't handle that (even if it's a GOOD message....don't kill thy neighbor is pretty cool to me) b/c it's the word of God. dum dum dum! i can't hear it, my ears will explode. we've been told we're stupid, that we're dumb and not-informed b/c we're too wound up Jesus' butt. fabulous. i am informed, but my opinion is just different. oh wait, i forgot my opinion can't be different and even close to conservative....b/c then i'm wrong. AND stupid. stupid me! the Christian conservatives i know are also informed....my parents are HARD CORE right wingers, and yes, that's a lil un-nerving for me, too....but they are making decisions based on their beliefs and convictions and voting for the person who best represents that. that's how people vote. this go 'round, seems like conservative thinking was the majority.

as far as prayer, i am with ya on that no organized prayer thing b/c yes there are a million religions in this country.....i'm with you ppl on more than i was able to properly express last night/this morning evidently b/c i was only attempting to show another side....the Christian side, which i do believe gets the shaft. i am around Christians, i am a Christian, i am in the South, so that's what i am familiar with. my fault for the confusion and the abundance of frustration. just from where i stand, my parents have felt for a long time that no one was properly representing them, now they do. that's what i see now.....i'm sorry liberals are suffering how my parents did some years ago. i can understand how you feel....and that's sincere.

as far as ppl being concerned over clinton, uh YES there were many ppl i knew who were. i live in the SOUTH, what was it, jackmove?? and the South, as scary as it is for you open minded souls, is the Bible belt.....clinton, while claiming to be Southern Baptist, was anything but. i'm glad that everyone else has had someone that they felt was on their side.......now i think it's good that someone else does.

jackmove.....lol.....idiot. sorry, KSigRC, didn't realize i offended you so much. can't win 'em all, i guess.
**this whole post wasn't directed totally at KSigRC....i tried to answer some questions or whatever concerning my post. if i did great, if not, oh well. i'm excited about my wknd....**

[AGDee]

We are clearly viewing prosperity (as well as most everything in life) in different ways.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AGDee
We are clearly viewing prosperity (as well as most everything in life) in different ways.

When I talk about "economic prosperity," I, like most people, am refering to macroeconomics.

What do you mean by "economic prosperity?"

[KSig RC]

I think you mistook me here - I was assailing the viewpoints, not you personally, and I'm glad you're against the amendment, b/c I am too. I was assailing what are extremely common complaints from the Christian Right - the portion of the Republican party that I don't agree with, even as a card-carrying member.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
oh holy geez......

when i was discussing the whole gay thing, i was ATTEMPTING to explain the whole Christian viewpoint thing....but being a Christian who is against the ammendment, i may be a little off. that was my understanding, thanks. from what i understand, handing over that divine right (note, not civil right, according to conservs/Christians/what have you) to someone who lives in an "abomination" is a hard thing for those who are for the ammendment to accept. i am NOT FOR THE AMMENDMENT. I VOTED NO. JESUS, yourself. may i quote myself here for a moment?

I get where you're coming from, but an amendment steps across the line from "divine right" to "legal right" . . . there is no other basis for denying gays these rights other than religion, no? Then it's clearly a violation of church/state etc etc I'm repeating myself.

We are clearly right here, by being against this sort of thing - I know you're laying out a rationale, but it's flawed implicitly. I'm attacking this flaw, not the religion behind it.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
i believe that my thoughts and beliefs are protected b/c this is the USA. everyone else's free speech, etc. is protected....i think i'm included in that. just another off handed, random remark for ya, just to throw that in there. my post which started this whole discovery of my idioticness was only to shine some light on another viewpoint, but not necessarily totally my own. if that makes any sense.......

True, I don't think I told you to stop voting, more likely to address issues in a better manner. You're starting to do this, unless you're going to start calling me an idiot or something . . .

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
and yes, believe it or not, mr. niceguy, Christians have been treated like crap a lot in this country. i don't think anyone would have a isht if someone put up a chinese proverb in court houses, but b/c someone put up the 10 commandments, well HEAVEN FORBID. if it has something to do with the Bible, ppl can't handle that (even if it's a GOOD message....don't kill thy neighbor is pretty cool to me) b/c it's the word of God. dum dum dum! i can't hear it, my ears will explode. we've been told we're stupid, that we're dumb and not-informed b/c we're too wound up Jesus' butt. fabulous. i am informed, but my opinion is just different. oh wait, i forgot my opinion can't be different and even close to conservative....b/c then i'm wrong. AND stupid. stupid me! the Christian conservatives i know are also informed....my parents are HARD CORE right wingers, and yes, that's a lil un-nerving for me, too....but they are making decisions based on their beliefs and convictions and voting for the person who best represents that. that's how people vote. this go 'round, seems like conservative thinking was the majority.

In no way did I say you're stupid for being a "HARD CORE right winger", which would seem silly at best since I'm a "MODERATE right winger" . . . but I just don't think I can get the message through to people on here w/out using extreme examples. How bout this . . .

(*Impersonal you now, general statements!*)

Let's say you walk into a public office, or your kids go to school. They have a mandatory prayer moment, where they pray to Allah, out loud, mandated by the school. Would you be comfortable with that?

Or how about having a list of Islamic laws on the wall of the courts you're being tried in, and the judge . . . well, wow, he's a fundamentalist Muslim! That might be disconcerting for you . . . which is why those things are BANNED in public buildings.

How on Earth can anyone say Christians are treated like crap? YOU RUN THE FUCKING PLACE, in no way can you say you're being abased. (This is the impersonal you again, just to clarify)

I've heard this argument a million times, and every time it just comes down to people assuming their way is innocuous (and, obviously, correct, at least for them), at least enough to ignore the founding principles of our nation.

The money didn't originally say "In God We Trust" and the POA didn't always say "Under God" - Christians in power added these decades, even centuries, later. To say Christians are somehow abased is arrogant and demeaning to those who have fought long and hard (AND STILL FIGHT!) to get rights even remotely equal to white Christians in this nation.

If anyone would like to refute that last paragraph, please, let's discuss openly and honestly - but as far as I know, that's as close to a truism as I can come.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
as far as prayer, i am with ya on that no organized prayer thing b/c yes there are a million religions in this country.....i'm with you ppl on more than i was able to properly express last night/this morning evidently b/c i was only attempting to show another side....the Christian side, which i do believe gets the shaft. i am around Christians, i am a Christian, i am in the South, so that's what i am familiar with. my fault for the confusion and the abundance of frustration. just from where i stand, my parents have felt for a long time that no one was properly representing them, now they do. that's what i see now.....i'm sorry liberals are suffering how my parents did some years ago. i can understand how you feel....and that's sincere.

This is the best paragraph you've written - I understand far better your viewpoint, but also you must take a moment and separate yourself from your background, and see that just b/c you are being better represented, this does not mean you weren't being represented before (again, the power and history thing), and etc etc.

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
as far as ppl being concerned over clinton, uh YES there were many ppl i knew who were. i live in the SOUTH, what was it, jackmove?? and the South, as scary as it is for you open minded souls, is the Bible belt.....clinton, while claiming to be Southern Baptist, was anything but. i'm glad that everyone else has had someone that they felt was on their side.......now i think it's good that someone else does.

jackmove.....lol.....idiot. sorry, KSigRC, didn't realize i offended you so much. can't win 'em all, i guess.
**this whole post wasn't directed totally at KSigRC....i tried to answer some questions or whatever concerning my post. if i did great, if not, oh well. i'm excited about my wknd....**

. . . and there's the "idiot" portion of the presentation - well, all good, if you can even address a few of these points in a mature, rational manner we can have a good discussion - one that Republicans in general will be increasingly faced with, b/c unfortunately there's a definite rift between, say, you and me.

As far as Clinton - his popularity soared after the adultery scandal, especially in the South. You may have known one or two people, but the reality is that you're applying a couple discrete anecdotal cases to the whole.

Also don't act like I'm taking a dump on the South here, b/c I'm not at all, and I'm Lutheran and Republican - I'm assailing the flaws in logic, not the region, religion or anything.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by KSig RC
...I'm Lutheran....

I knew I liked you for a reason.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
When I talk about "economic prosperity," I, like most people, am refering to macroeconomics.

What do you mean by "economic prosperity?"

The connotation I got from your post is wide spread wealth. I will be very surprised if that occurs within the next year, particularly in my state. I do think it will occur for the upper middle class and upper class, but for the rest of us, I don't see anything pointing to change any time soon.

As for the other issues, my main point is that, I think MOST of you would be totally inflamed if you were forced to follow the religious laws of a religion that you didn't ascribe to. Possibly inflamed enough to make a statement like "I'm moving to Canada".


Dee

[IowaStatePhiPsi]

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by IowaStatePhiPsi

This is the type of ignorant demagoguery that prevents any type of real discourse.