ITT We Discuss Theology

[Psi U MC Vito]

Instead of continuing to derail the other thread I figured I would bump this. The comment on female deacons really confused me.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Instead of continuing to derail the other thread I figured I would bump this. The comment on female deacons really confused me.

I'd be interested to hear more about the female deacons as well. Just to give some background, clerical roles are traditionally only open to men across all the Orthodox groups.

However, there was a time that women could be ordained to the Minor & Holy Orders up to and including the role of Deacon. Back in the day, their responsibilities largely centered on ministering to women. Deacons can, of course, dispense pre-sanctified communion, among other things.

I have been very interested in the possibility of bringing female deacons back to the Russian Orthodox Church. I would, personally, be interested in assuming this role.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Not surprising since there are biblical references to female deacons.

[barbino]

Sorry about the further derailing of the other thread. We also have female deacons in one of the 2 churches that we attend/are members of (Korean Presbyterian pastor) but actually non-denominational evangelical.

My husband (a seminary student) says that per the Bible deacons should be men (Judges 6; 1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3:1-7) but that there are deaconesses as the tradition varies from denomination to denomination. I try not to ask him for clarification too often but he does know where to find it.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by barbino

My husband (a seminary student) says that per the Bible deacons should be men (Judges 6; 1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3:1-7) but that there are deaconesses as the tradition varies from denomination to denomination. I try not to ask him for clarification too often but he does know where to find it.

That's one reading of the passages you cite -- that deacons should be men -- but not the only reading of them. (The Timothy ones at least; I don't know what Judges has to do with it, given that (a) the office of diakonos is a New Testament concept, not a Hebrew one, and (b) there were female judges.) I know many seminary students, graduates and professors who would say it is not an accurate reading.

One could continue reading in 1 Timothy 3 to verse 11, which speaks of "the women" and seems to be talking about what kind of women should be deacons. (The other meaning would be that Paul is referring to deacon's wives, but that doesn't really fit contextually.) Then there's the case of Romans 16:1, where Paul specifically refers to Phoebe as a deacon. True, the word diakonos, from which we get the English "deacon" literally means "servant" or "one who waits on others," so Paul could simply be calling her a servant of the church. But what, then, do we make of the fact that Paul used the masculine diakonos rather than the feminine diakona? It would seem that if he simply meant "servant" he would have used the later. His use of the masculine in reference to a women could suggest that he did indeed mean it as a title or designation, not simply as a description. Literally, he says "I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, she is deacon (ousan diakonon) of the assembly (church/ekklesia) at Cenchrea."

I think one has to be careful about reading more into 1 Timothy than Paul intended. If indeed it is setting forth absolute requirements, then it would seem that deacons must not only be men, but must be married ("the husband of one wife") and fathers ("manage his children and his household well.") I think Paul's point was not that only men can be deacons (otherwise, why verse 11 about "the women"?), but rather one should be able to manage one's own affairs before one tries to manage the church's affairs, and that bigamists or polygamists need not apply.

It seems odd to say the least that a female diaconate would have existed under the early Church Fathers (which it did) if Paul had so clearly forbidden it. How these female deacons' roles compared to (or differed from) their male counterparts can certainly be debated, but it's pretty clear that Paul assumed women would be deacons.

[adventstoryAOII]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

One could continue reading in 1 Timothy 3 to verse 11, which speaks of "the women" and seems to be talking about what kind of women should be deacons. (The other meaning would be that Paul is referring to deacon's wives, but that doesn't really fit contextually.) Then there's the case of Romans 16:1, where Paul specifically refers to Phoebe as a deacon. True, the word diakonos, from which we get the English "deacon" literally means "servant" or "one who waits on others," so Paul could simply be calling her a servant of the church. But what, then, do we make of the fact that Paul used the masculine diakonos rather than the feminine diakona? It would seem that if he simply meant "servant" he would have used the later. His use of the masculine in reference to a women could suggest that he did indeed mean it as a title or designation, not simply as a description. Literally, he says "I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, she is deacon (ousan diakonon) of the assembly (church/ekklesia) at Cenchrea."

I second this (studying Classical Greek currently). Paul could also have potentially used another word for "servant" o doulos (yes, it is a masculine/neuter noun, but it can be used with the feminine form of "autos" for emphasis). That's pretty much my contribution, as small as it is.

[barbino]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That's one reading of the passages you cite -- that deacons should be men -- but not the only reading of them. (The Timothy ones at least; I don't know what Judges has to do with it, given that (a) the office of diakonos is a New Testament concept, not a Hebrew one, and (b) there were female judges.) I know many seminary students, graduates and professors who would say it is not an accurate reading.

One could continue reading in 1 Timothy 3 to verse 11, which speaks of "the women" and seems to be talking about what kind of women should be deacons. (The other meaning would be that Paul is referring to deacon's wives, but that doesn't really fit contextually.) Then there's the case of Romans 16:1, where Paul specifically refers to Phoebe as a deacon. True, the word diakonos, from which we get the English "deacon" literally means "servant" or "one who waits on others," so Paul could simply be calling her a servant of the church. But what, then, do we make of the fact that Paul used the masculine diakonos rather than the feminine diakona? It would seem that if he simply meant "servant" he would have used the later. His use of the masculine in reference to a women could suggest that he did indeed mean it as a title or designation, not simply as a description. Literally, he says "I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, she is deacon (ousan diakonon) of the assembly (church/ekklesia) at Cenchrea."

I think one has to be careful about reading more into 1 Timothy than Paul intended. If indeed it is setting forth absolute requirements, then it would seem that deacons must not only be men, but must be married ("the husband of one wife") and fathers ("manage his children and his household well.") I think Paul's point was not that only men can be deacons (otherwise, why verse 11 about "the women"?), but rather one should be able to manage one's own affairs before one tries to manage the church's affairs, and that bigamists or polygamists need not apply.

It seems odd to say the least that a female diaconate would have existed under the early Church Fathers (which it did) if Paul had so clearly forbidden it. How these female deacons' roles compared to (or differed from) their male counterparts can certainly be debated, but it's pretty clear that Paul assumed women would be deacons.

MysticCat,

You are 100% right about Judges, and I should have known better than to have cited any part of the Bible before checking it first. Thanks for reminding me that I need to check absolutely everything when I edit my husband's papers!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by barbino

Thanks for reminding me that I need to check absolutely everything when I edit my husband's papers!

Exactly why I love it when my wife edits what I've written. She catches things I never do.

[Psi U MC Vito]

In the bible there are also references to Deaconesses (sp?). I was just surprised that the Orthodox, who hold that it is not possible to ordain women, would have deaconesses.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Went to the Akathist of St. Katherine today at the local Antiochian Orthodox mission in town. It was quite interesting.

[SWTXBelle]

It's heeeeeerrrrreeee! The Anglican Ordinariate!

http://www.usordinariate.org/

My home parish is the principal church - Deo gratias. I'm very excited, especially for the Episcopal and Anglican parishes who are joining us.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

It's heeeeeerrrrreeee! The Anglican Ordinariate!

http://www.usordinariate.org/

My home parish is the principal church - Deo gratias. I'm very excited, especially for the Episcopal and Anglican parishes who are joining us.

I read an article about this earlier this morning and immediately thought of you/this thread! Of course you beat me to the punch!

[Psi U MC Vito]

The timing is interesting because now the liturgy of the Ordinate will not be in step with that the rest of the country is using. The new Order of the Mass seems to me to be more different from the old style then the Rite II of the BCP, which is more or less reproduced in the BDW. Also a question for the Catholics on here. Any of you familiar with Jesuit spirituality?

[SWTXBelle]

Well, technically we were "out of step" when we were simply an Anglican Use parish. With the new Order, we had to make two small changes in our usual service - the one I recall off the top of my head is "holy church" instead of just "church". We've been "And with thy spirit"ing all along.

We don't use the big ol' BDW - we have our order of mass in paperback missals in the pews (including the prayers in Latin we use at the 8:15 mass).

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

... Also a question for the Catholics on here. Any of you familiar with Jesuit spirituality?

Oro pro Societas! Are you familiar with <http://ignatianspirituality.com> ?