Hazing -- Good or bad?

[SoCalGirl]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I know, I was kidding.

I know you were.

[bows&toes]

we make ours get 10 a week. We have over 100 guys, works great.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

god forbid we make them do some pushups...

God forbid they have a heart attack and die. Or at least get rushed to the infirmary and almost die. And how about the press afterwards.

When did upper body strength become a predictor of a quality brother, unless, of course, you have a weak IM lacrosse team.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I know, I was kidding.

Kidding, what kind of answer is that when "PLEDGES" have died from to much water consumption, is that a joke also or just irresponseable?

While this may be funny to you it isnt to a lot of us.

[macallan25]

Tom, you are ridiculous. I really don't have anything to say to you.

It was a joke......about not being able to hold your beer. Chill the F**k out.

Yes, I think a pledge dying from drinking too much water is an absolute joke, and extremely idiotic. Both parties in that situation are morons as far as i'm concerned...the pledge and the active.

[bows&toes]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

God forbid they have a heart attack and die. Or at least get rushed to the infirmary and almost die. And how about the press afterwards.

When did upper body strength become a predictor of a quality brother, unless, of course, you have a weak IM lacrosse team.

Heart attack??!? Are you kidding me? When have you heard of healthy 18-21year old men getting heart attacks from doing pushups!?

Physical training is done as part of a lineup. You know, those things good chapters do to make their pledges earn the letters? We don't just shower them with hugs and corny ritual talk and expect them to respect the org, they have to earn the right to wear the letters and learn my ritual.

[macallan25]

I don't see how doing pushups is any more strenuous than those crazy line dances that bglos do. If one of them died of a heart attack...I guess you could say the same things.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

Heart attack??!? Are you kidding me? When have you heard of healthy 18-21year old men getting heart attacks from doing pushups!?

Physical training is done as part of a lineup. You know, those things good chapters do to make their pledges earn the letters? We don't just shower them with hugs and corny ritual talk and expect them to respect the org, they have to earn the right to wear the letters and learn my ritual.

Mix alcohol, sleep deprivation, and physical stress, and death occurs more frequently than you think.
But, I'm sorry, perhaps you have the medical training and research to know what you assert.
I've had to clean up the legal mess guys like you leave for their inter/nationals several times, and guys in my fraternity have to pay 200 dollars a man for insurance because of attitudes like yours.
You've got the perfect right to act stupidly, just don't try to convince any of us that you're not.

[jon1856]

While doing a search for something else I came across this site.
On several threads, including this on, there have been conversations on what is and what is not hazing. We have seen laws posted but I found something that seems to be based or biased on common sense as well as laws:
http://www.stophazing.org/definition.html

http://www.stophazing.org/moreexamples.htm

[Kevin]

I read the definition. I stopped at "emotional harm."

What is that?

That's kind of like the "mental discomfort" definition which someone posted earlier. So ambiguous as to be meaningless. So meaningless as to be dangerous if interpreted by the wrong people.

I think we're averse to using hard and fast terms to define hazing as collegiate members will find the loopholes faster than those loopholes can be closed. On the other hand, shouldn't we also be conscious about the fact we're using terms which defy definition?

[bows&toes]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

Mix alcohol, sleep deprivation, and physical stress, and death occurs more frequently than you think.
But, I'm sorry, perhaps you have the medical training and research to know what you assert.
I've had to clean up the legal mess guys like you leave for their inter/nationals several times, and guys in my fraternity have to pay 200 dollars a man for insurance because of attitudes like yours.
You've got the perfect right to act stupidly, just don't try to convince any of us that you're not.

I have stated multiple times here that I do not condone alcohol + hazing. I believe in hazing that serves a purpose, not stupid hazing. Stupid hazing = forced drinking, forced eating, homo erotic hazing, etc.

I want to see some proof that there has been deaths from healthy pledges doing push ups that were not intoxicated. Until you show me that, you can take your worthless GHQ garbage and shove it up your a**. It is not a coincidence that EVERY good southern chapter I have been to (15+) comprising of different large orgs (SAE, Phi Delt, EX, EN, KA, etc) all of them top tier on their campus have one thing in common....

I don't blame you for your opinions though, I'm sure you are in your late 20s maybe 30s+ and are completely out of touch with reality when it comes to how chapters REALLY operate...not the way GHQ sees them operate. Sorry I'm a realist and I will say it how it is.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I read the definition. I stopped at "emotional harm."

What is that?

That's kind of like the "mental discomfort" definition which someone posted earlier. So ambiguous as to be meaningless. So meaningless as to be dangerous if interpreted by the wrong people.

I think we're averse to using hard and fast terms to define hazing as collegiate members will find the loopholes faster than those loopholes can be closed. On the other hand, shouldn't we also be conscious about the fact we're using terms which defy definition?

Yes. Your post sums up everything that's wrong with all the hazing laws and policies today.

If we mean "you are not allowed to make fun of a pledge for not knowing fraternity history" or whatever - we need to say that, EXPLICITLY. and every other single thing we don't want to happen. It takes a lot longer, but if we really want to prevent it from happening it's what must be done.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

I have stated multiple times here that I do not condone alcohol + hazing. I believe in hazing that serves a purpose, not stupid hazing. Stupid hazing = forced drinking, forced eating, homo erotic hazing, etc.

I want to see some proof that there has been deaths from healthy pledges doing push ups that were not intoxicated. Until you show me that, you can take your worthless GHQ garbage and shove it up your a**. It is not a coincidence that EVERY good southern chapter I have been to (15+) comprising of different large orgs (SAE, Phi Delt, EX, EN, KA, etc) all of them top tier on their campus have one thing in common....

I don't blame you for your opinions though, I'm sure you are in your late 20s maybe 30s+ and are completely out of touch with reality when it comes to how chapters REALLY operate...not the way GHQ sees them operate. Sorry I'm a realist and I will say it how it is.

Perhaps your chapter should spend more time teaching manners and less time hazing.

And BTW, I have left more pledges quivering in fear without ever raising my voice or insisting on stupid, sophomoric physical demands than you could ever hope to. I still meet guys I questioned fifteen years ago who break out in a cold sweat just looking at me. I've had guys run out of the room. I've had guys break down and cry in front of me. I've had men tell me it was one of the most emotional things they've ever experienced. I believe that heathy stress is an integral part of a meaningful pledge program. I know what I'm doing when I interact with pledges, which I do 2-3x a week. Athletic programs insist on check-ups before putting a man through calestenics and have trained personnel ready to deal with problems. So does the military. Do you?
Do you tell your professors that they don't know what they're talking about? Do you think 30 year olds have nothing of value to share with you? You are doomed to a rough few years ahead, sir. Perhaps your should spend some more time thinking about your ritual that you claim to be so proud of.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

Perhaps your chapter should spend more time teaching manners and less time hazing.

Athletic programs insist on check-ups before putting a man through calestenics and have trained personnel ready to deal with problems. So does the military. Do you?

Someday they will understand. Hopefully, it won't be too late.

Although it is rare, sometimes seemingly healthy people have hidden problems that even a doctor hasn't found.

Several years ago, a very good friend of mine, a health "nut" and runner dropped dead in the ESPN newsroom the night before he was supposed to go on the air there. We all have heard stories of athletes who have died unexpectedly.

Your comments vis-a-vis ritual, manners and experience are on target as well.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

Heart attack??!? Are you kidding me? When have you heard of healthy 18-21year old men getting heart attacks from doing pushups!?

Physical training is done as part of a lineup. You know, those things good chapters do to make their pledges earn the letters? We don't just shower them with hugs and corny ritual talk and expect them to respect the org, they have to earn the right to wear the letters and learn my ritual.

I know of quite a few chapters that have been snatched because young men or women have suddenly collapsed due to physical training exercises. There was one particular instance where a pledge died on the spot after doing push ups. Some people are rushed to the hospital after doing other strenuous exercises.

Keep in mind that otherwise healthy young adults (some college athletes) suddenly die doing routine things or playing basketball. It happened to an acquaintance of mine. The body can do some unpredictable things. Also, some people have holes in their hearts or other conditions that they are unaware of or have not told the pledge leaders about.

Do whatever you do but just because someone hasn't been injured or died from something so "simple" as physical training under YOUR watch doesn't mean that physical training isn't a potentially dangerous form of hazing. It might happen less than 5% of the time but that statistic won't make you feel any better if/when it happens to YOUR pledge and YOUR chapter.

So unless you give PT tests to pledges BEFORE they start doing these things AND you can predict the future, be aware of all of the costs and benefits. Just because something is effective in making pledges doesn't mean it's innocently effective.