Law School

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAzul

did you guys use any prep books? Any suggested reading? I got a couple practice test books and a couple "this is what the questions really mean" type of things.

Back in the day I used LSAT 180 and "10 Real, Offical LSAT Prep Tests."

[adpiucf]

PowerScore's Logic Games Bible and Logical Reasoning Bible, Nova's Master the LSAT and the "Next 10 Actual LSAT" from LSAC, as well as ordering the 4 most recently released tests are a good place to begin.

I also recommend TestMaster's prep course. If you sign up for a prep course, know that this registration does not mean you are registered for the LSAT. You register for the LSAT with LSAC.

Work your way through the bibles and then take an actual timed practice test. Don't bother with untimed tests-- those scores will reveal nothing. The released tests only comprise 4 sections and a writing sample. On test day, you will have an extra "experimental" section on any one of the three types of sections. When you take your practice tests, always add a fifth section from another old test so you get used to this format and learn to pace yourself.

Get a timer and cut the buzzer out. Time yourself. Take a 10 minute break after the third section.

If you have friends taking it, try to take practice tests together. Don't wear ear plugs-- they aren't allowed on test day. Call the testing site and see if they'll let you use the room where your test will be administered for a practice test. Definitely drive out to the site the week before and give yourself plenty of time to get there. Bring small bills and change for parking -- you never know.

Turn off your cell phone when studying-- the library is a good place to study. Starbucks is not.

OTHER: I recommend registering with the LSDAS now -- and getting your transcrpits and LOR's in now, so once the LSAT is over, all you have left to do is start selecting schools in your range and preparing your essays, instead of stressing about professors procrastinating and your transcripts getting lost in transit. For an idea of your chances with admissions check out: lawschooldiscussion.org, lawschoolnumbers.com and chiashu.com, as well as LSAC.org. The admissions process is largely a numbers game based on your GPA and LSAT score. Soft factors like extracurrculars and recommendations will help at schools where you're on the edge or in the middle of their accepted scores. If you're a longshot, get started on curing cancer now. Studying abroad or running the sorority bake sale doesn't matter much to these adcomms because so many of the candidates boast these in their applications, so involve yourself with some meaningful leadership and commnuity service opportunities.

[kddani]

I would suggest browsing through various books and picking 2 that seem the best to you. Don't spend a ton of money preparing for it... there's no use buying a ton of stuff you won't use. Start off with 2 books, if you feel you need more, go for it.

I personally would only recommend a prep course (which is a TON of money and a TON of work) if you really have problems with standardized tests and/or have been getting pretty low scores on practice tests (low, of course, depends on what your goals were). Or if you really have discipline problems in making yourself study.

LSAT does not test specific knowledge of material (like the Bar exam would... if you guys think the LSAT test is bad, wait until the bar), so there is only so much you can learn and only so much a class can teach you.

Practice is the best thing you can do for yourself.

[PhoenixAzul]

I typically do pretty well on standardized tests, my SAT/ACT/AP's all went really well. I just have to work on the diagram questions, they're really getting to me. I think that a realistic goal for me would be 160...with my GPA and what have you, I hope that will be enough to get me on my way.

Congrats on your scores and I appreciate the help.

[PhiMuAmberkins]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

We're in the same boat! I saw your post on LSD Now comes the fun stuff! I got all of my LORs and transcripts out of the way... now I'm obsessively calculating percentage points on Chiashu going over the charts on LSN. What regions are you interested in?

ME TOO! I can't stop calculating my GPA/LSAT thingy. I've got an index of 204, so I should be able to get into my #1 (and only, so I really need to get in!) University of Arkansas.

I still need to get all of my LORs and transcripts. But I have a 4 day weekend, so I'm taking a break and starting all that on Wednesday!

Where are you looking at?

[adpiucf]

Mostly T2 in NY, CA and FL And a few other large cities. I have 14 programs on the list; trying to work it down to between 8 and 12.

LSN is the devil!

[KSigkid]

Got my estimate for books for the semester - I wonder if they'll just accept blood? I'll barter food or something...

[kddani]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

Got my estimate for books for the semester - I wonder if they'll just accept blood? I'll barter food or something...

Tips for saving money:
Buy whatever you can used, online. If you know your books by now, you have plenty of time to order them before the semester begins. You can get great deals on amazon and half.com.

Statutory supplements are pretty much a waste of money. Exceptions would be the Federal Tax Code and the UCC, because there is just so much you will use (still sucks though). For other textbooks, you can just print out the relevant statutes for free from Lexis or Westlaw.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by kddani

Tips for saving money:
Buy whatever you can used, online. If you know your books by now, you have plenty of time to order them before the semester begins. You can get great deals on amazon and half.com.

Statutory supplements are pretty much a waste of money. Exceptions would be the Federal Tax Code and the UCC, because there is just so much you will use (still sucks though). For other textbooks, you can just print out the relevant statutes for free from Lexis or Westlaw.

Cool, thanks for the tips. I don't have the list yet, but I've heard estimates. UConn actually has a message board set up for new admits, with current students available to answer questions; cost of books has been one of the topics.

I'm definitely planning on going the amazon/half.com route as much as possible, but I didn't realize about the resources on Lexis and Westlaw. Thanks for the ideas.

[Munchkin03]

Who decides what law school is top tier, second tier, etc?

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Who decides what law school is top tier, second tier, etc?

USNews.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by GeekyPenguin

USNews.

Although hopefully people don't think that those are the be-all-end-all. Some 2nd/3rd/4th tier schools have great regional reputations and solid faculties (Suffolk Law, for example), and people get great jobs out of those places (whether a great job is in the DA's office or in a big firm).

I wasn't sure, where is the 1st/2nd tier cut-off?

[kddani]

I've seen this on a few law related message boards and thought it would be pertinent to post on here. I agree with most of it:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


As a 2005 grad and a practicing lawyer, I though I'd post this. Perhaps I'll save a few from a bad choice.

Many folks are firm believers that their LSAT and GPA don't represent the 'real' them. They use my favorite line: they're "smarter than the numbers say they are". They may have graduated college with a B- average in psychology, they may have gotten a 150 on the LSAT after 500 hours of studying, but to them it doesn't matter: They are smart. They want to go to law school.

Are you one of those people?

Time for a wake up call.

If YOU are one of those folks, know this: You may think you're smart (everyone does)...

But you're probably wrong (most people are).

If you didn't/couldn't do well in college, which is EASY compared to law school, or on the LSAT, which is a completely predictable and reasonably short test, you probably won't do well in law school. Here's why:

1) You probably read slowly.

If you could never manage to finish the LSAT, which rewards speedy readers, guess what? You'll probably have trouble keeping up with all the reading as a 1L. We would often read well over 500 pages PER CLASS, per semester. And that's not like reading Tom Clancy. No, you need to pick up on small points which are often hidden in the text. You need to learn new words and terms, and keep track of what they mean accurately ("preponderance" doesn't mean "tons and tons"). You need to remember it all.

Unlike college (which is commonly run like high school these days), you are NOT TAUGHT THE LAW. (I can hear the "huh?" now). You learn the law on your own. The classes are just to refine that knowledge.

This is a very, very, important distinction. You've probably experienced someone lecturing you on a topic--say, the quadratic theorem--until you learn it. In law school, they'd hand you the algebra book and say "go learn the quadratic theorem, we'll have 30 minutes tomorrow to discuss it, maybe".

If you can't learn from books, you're in trouble.

2) You probably write like @#$%&.

OK, this applies to many lawyers as well. But Legal Methods is a great 1L-killer. And many professors will murder you on exams--as they well should--if you can't write, to say nothing of seminars which require papers. Can you write a coherent sentence? Can you write a coherent paragraph? (hint: Have you ever gotten an "A" on a lengthy paper in college? How about more than a few "B"s? Did you major in a writing-intensive field where you were graded on your writing skills? If you can't say "yes" to one or more of these, the answer is probably no.)

Also, be aware that the BAR exam is all written. And that employers strongly prefer people who can write, for hopefully obvious reasons.

(final hint: If you need someone to write your essay for you, or do substantial editing to grammar, spelling, word choice, etc: you're doomed.)

3) You have bad study skills.

Do you take good notes? REALLY good notes? Are you decent at listening to a conversation and understanding what's important? DO you write your papers on time? Do you study well inadvance of exams? DO you use any opportunities you can get for feedback from your teachers?

Law school is not fact based. It is fact-based AND reason-based. If you uderstand the "what" but not the "why", you will not do well. And while it's possible to memorize the parts of a cell in 2 hours--even though it's complicated--or to learn the Krebs cycle by rote, it's not the same in law school. You can memorize the definition of proximate cause until you're blue in the face and you'll still fail the essay if you don't understand it.

Thus, while cramming is an important skill, it's less important than studying.

4) You procrastinate.
Yes, lots of people do it. I am a procrastinator myself, which is why I'm typing this instead of billing hours. And there is nothing wrong with it per se, SO LONG AS you have the brains and work ethic to get it done in the end.

If you get behind and you're smart and a fast read, you can catch up. If you're a slow reader who doesn't understand the basics yet, when do you think you'll catch up? Over break?

5) You falsely overestimate your grasp of the material
It's easy to think "I know this" until someone asks you a question on it which you didn't think of, or until you don't have your notes. Perhaps this should be in the 'study skills' section. But EVERY SEMESTER (especially the first) people will think they know the material, and they're wrong.

How dumb can you get? Go get an exam and try it WITHOUT your notes. Did you get it all right? Law school is full of sample questions, old tests, practice exams... and students who ignore them. Again: It might fly in college, but not here.

Not incidentally, this also applies to those who think law school is not especially hard in general.

Quick multi-part quiz:
a) How well did you do on the LSAT?
b) Di you expect the score you got?
c) If not, why not?
d) if so, and it was a bad score, why did you take the LSAT in the first place?

6) You party too hard.
Yes, I know you used to go out drinking all the time in college. But I'll give you a bit o' free advice: Don't do it until SECOND SEMESTER. Which is to say: If you got As, you can afford to have beers on Tuesdays.

7) You think your previous problems were unique.
Yes, I know, you were a hard partier in college. Now you've changed. And you had a weird roommate. You hated your major. Your advisor sucked. You got a D in some bullshit freshman course which pulled down your GPA. This may all be true.

However, OTHER PEOPLE HAD THE SAME PROBLEMS. And got better grades.

This does not apply to a very small subset of people; those whose mother died 1 day before finals, etc etc etc.

But for most people:

You improved your study skills since college...
but so did everyone else.

This is a problem because:

8) The school grades on a curve, but other people are smarter than you, work harder than you, or both.

Most t4 schools curve fairly low; nonetheless you need a C average to get a J.D. Why is this a problem?

Well, think of it this way:
-Remember all those folks who ALSO went to college, had their own set of excuses, and who still did better than you? They're in your class.
-Remember all those folks who ALSO took the LSAT, had their own set of excuses, and who still did better than you? They're in your class.

You don't need to do better than you have done. You don't need to meet some wonderful personal goal of acheivement. You need to do better than OTHER PEOPLE. Many of who, it is probably safe to say based on GPA and LSAT, have better learning skills than you do.

You can't change how smart you are. You can only change how hard you work, and you need to work MUCH HARDER than they do. And--you may not know this, because if you have a low GPA and LSAT you apparently haven't done it before--working hard all the time is very, very, difficult. It's hard to keep going for three years.

Nonetheless, you must work until you do well. Top students will generally put in 40-60 hours per week, every week, plus more on exams. You will see them in the library between classes. You will recognize them because they will sometimes decline invitations to play Ultimate in favor of studying.

I know that doesn't sound bad, but there's a catch: Those were the top students. They are generally the ones with advantages in terms of study skills and reading speed. When they sit down to study for an hour, they DO IT. They don't surf the web, chat, masturbate, or play on Westlaw.

If you're a slow reader you may need to devote 80 hours per week to law school just to keep up with the reading. If you're a poor writer you may need to rewrite your Legal Methods brief seven times. This is enough to break most people. But if you're going to invest $30000 you better be sure you can hack it.
(hint: Have you ever spent 60 hours a week working, studying, or a combination? If you could hold that down for a few months, you'll be fine. If not, you should worry).

9) You're making a bad financial choice.
Law is a financially rewarding profession for these categories of folks:

a) People with successful careers already, who merely supplement or build on their career through a law degree.

If you've got a PhD, own or manage a copmany, etc: this may be you. If you work at a Gap: this is not you.

b) people who go to top law schools.
You know who you are.

c) People who have family or political connections.
You know who you are.

d) People who do VERY well at lower ranked law schools AND who get lucky. Very well means top 10% at a t4, possibly top 5%. Even so you won't get into BIGLAW easily.

Remember that if you choose wrong, you've wasted ayear of income and experience, lost $30k in tuition, quit any job you had, tken worthless courses, and destroyed your morale.

CONCLUSION!!

Choose carefully. Law is right for many people. Just be sure it's right for YOU. There are far easier ways to get respect, education, and money.

I don't want to be a complete downer. Few feelings are more pleasant than tackling a difficult task and succeeding. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with gambling and losing so long as the odds are good. Life happens, and even brilliant students will do well. Law school is not life; it's not a measure of personal success.

OTOH, few things are more unpleasant than making a bad gamble just because you were too tired, or bored, or pressured, or confused, to think it through first. If you don't know yourself well; if you find you can't predict results which stem from your own actions: You're making a bad gamble. Take a year off and think.

Studies show that on average, people are selectively perceptive. We "earn" an A grade. We "get given" a D. We attribute our success to skill, even when it's rare. We attribute our failure to luck or others, even when it's common.

Does that sound familiar?

The studies also show that an average person is only semi-literate, has a 100-IQ, and is someone who would not do well in law school.

This has been a friendly message from your local attorney....


DON'T BE AVERAGE.

Edited:
Some of my very good friends in law school--people who were among my favorite folks as a first semester 1L--flunked out. That sucks. I would not want that to happen to anyone I like, nor to anyone in general.

Most of the people you will talk to (parents especially) and most of the books and websites and classes and videos you will see or use are dedicated to telling you that "anyone can succeed in law school". They generally have a vested interest in having you believe them, for obvious reasons.

I suppose it's theoretically true; "anyone can succeed in law school". In practice, however, its often false. Still, it seems that many more people would believe that statement about law school than would believe it about medical school, or most graduate PhD programs. Yet while law school isn't as hard as many PhD programs, it's a lot closer to them in difficulty than it is to a MSW, or college, to name a few comparisons.

I have no particular vested interest in whether anyone here goes to law school, or fails the bar, or makes a million dollars as the next Judge Judy. Unlike your parents, counselor, and professors, I really don't care.

But I think law schools in general and especially those at the low tiers do a disservice to applicants by falsely inflating their chances of graduating, passing the bar, and finding a job. This post is my own way of countering the misinformation.

[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I wasn't sure, where is the 1st/2nd tier cut-off?

Tier 1:
Top 50 (The top 14-20 of the these are the "nationally placed" law schools-- you can go to any of these top tier schools and reasonably be recruited anywhere in the country; whereas the rest have mainly regional and local placement opportunities). Of course, being in the T14 and getting national job opportunities rests largely with your personal success in your program.

Tier 2
51-100

Tier 3/4: non numerical assignment (IMHO, little separates the lower 100 from the Tier 3 schools-- they switch back and forth quite a bit. Last year, Syracuse was at the bottom of the Top 100; this year it is Tier 3. Last year, I believe, the reverse was true of St. Johns.)

Check out US News web site.

I am not an expert on this, being pre-law myself-- and defer to the current law students and lawyers for clarification.

Although honestly, how much difference is there between UF (41) and Cardozo (53) in terms of the ranking so that one is Tier 1 and the other is Tier 2? Granted, at that point, I'd be more interested in job placement, bar passage rates, etc., and where I want to practice post-grad. I wouldn't go to a regionally known school in Iowa if I really want to practice in Seattle. The difference between UCLA (15) and Loyola-LA (65) is somewhat more substantial. Both are still great schools.

And added paranoid note to any adcomms who might be possibly reading this: I'd love to go to any of these schools!!!!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

Tier 1:
Top 50 (The top 14-20 of the these are the "nationally placed" law schools-- you can go to any of these top tier schools and reasonably be recruited anywhere in the country; whereas the rest have mainly regional and local placement opportunities). Of course, being in the T14 and getting national job opportunities rests largely with your personal success in your program.

Tier 2
51-100

Tier 3/4: non numerical assignment (IMHO, little separates the lower 100 from the Tier 3 schools-- they switch back and forth quite a bit. Last year, Syracuse was at the bottom of the Top 100; this year it is Tier 3. Last year, I believe, the reverse was true of St. Johns.)

Check out US News web site.

I am not an expert on this, being pre-law myself-- and defer to the current law students and lawyers for clarification.

Although honestly, how much difference is there between UF (41) and Cardozo (53) in terms of the ranking so that one is Tier 1 and the other is Tier 2? Granted, at that point, I'd be more interested in job placement, bar passage rates, etc., and where I want to practice post-grad. I wouldn't go to a regionally known school in Iowa if I really want to practice in Seattle. The difference between UCLA (15) and Loyola-LA (65) is somewhat more substantial. Both are still great schools.

And added paranoid note to any adcomms who might be possibly reading this: I'd love to go to any of these schools!!!!

Cool, thanks...so I guess my school is Tier 1 (number 50 in the last US News poll).

As far as who belongs in law school and who doesn't, I can't really speak from any experience. I'm still a month away from starting school. However, I don't know why anyone would want to go through the applications, LSAT, and pay all that money if they weren't 150% sure. I know it happens though...