Medical School

[AOII Angel]

BTW, I graduated from medical school 11 years ago today! That means I graduated from residency 5 years ago...wow time flies!

I almost forgot, I had one guy fail into my class who is now an oncologist. He had a 4.0. Totally brilliant. Knew EVERYTHING! His offense? Never went to class. Everyone was appalled that they actually held him back.

A few years later, LSU was dinged by the governing body of medical schools for having too many didactic hours for students. All medical schools are encouraged to have about 4 or fewer a day. We had 8 hours a day. I know LSU checks attendance now with a computerized system. I saw it when I went back to teach board review for my residency program.

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by thewasher418

People can and do flunk out of med school. Not in the same numbers as some other schools, maybe, but that's how it's set up. The system is basically designed so that most of the attrition happens before enrollment- the number of aspiring pre-meds vs. the number of actual med school matriculants is astronomically different. Once you are in, most schools worth their salt have multiple support systems to help you succeed, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

So true. Most schools that I have had experience with either personally or through friends currently attending have Academic Hearing Committees, allow you to repeat classes, require academic probation, etc. They also require students to repeat the year at a certain point.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Your husband's experience isn't the ONLY experience. My class dropped by 10% after the first year

Same here.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

if you can't pass Step I of the USMLE, you can't pass second year of medical school. You get two chances

I just took this test two days ago and it is BRUTAL. It is eight hours and I prepped for it for six months. You don't pass that test without having worked your butt off for all two years of pre-clinical. I'm terrified right now that I failed and I worked.

But, OK. Let's say your ex worked at two "easy" medical schools where students really don't fail out and no class is ever mandatory and they all are given transcripts. Medical school would still be difficult in this case. Why? It's not like undergraduate where you're golden if you can get a copy of the lectures. In an exam question, you'll be given a patient presentation and be asked what bacteria has an exotoxin with a similar mechanism of action to the mechanism of action of the medication you would use to treat this disease. If you are missing even one of those steps, you wouldn't be able to answer the question.

Medical school really is about mastering the material, rather than "knowing" it because you really have to be able to bend it every which way in your mind. Just having a transcript doesn't do anything. In fact, I would really appreciate a school similar to the one you are complaining about. It sounds like they realize that their students have a huge task in front of them and are setting them up for success by permitting them to not waste time in lecture if it isn't helpful to them. Not everyone learns well in a lecture setting.

For instance, my school audio records all lectures so that students need not attend if that is how they best learn. A lot of my colleagues would go to the library instead of class and listen to the lectures on 2x the speed so they could get through double the lectures in half the time. They would then have extra time to review that day's material, prep for the test, do the readings, practice physical exam techniques, etc.

I think the main point here (well, one of them) is that when people skip class in medical school they aren't sitting at home while drinking beer and playing Halo. They're in the library or a home office trying to maximize their efficiency.

For me, even though I finished one of the biggest tests of my life, I still have to go study today. I have a huge amount of studying to get done before I start Family Med I rotations.

[Titchou]

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me.

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Titchou

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

I recommend not using the bolded outdated terminology.

Doctoral programs across disciplines can take 4-7 years depending on courses, exams, dissertations, field work, life events, etc. However, this thread is not a competition between M.D. and Ph.D.

Postdocs** are only required if the person needs research/clinical/licensing/field experience to be eligible to work in the field or to get a better position in the field and the person did not attain these things prior to completing the doctorate. Generally speaking and regardless of the field of expertise, a Ph.D. tends not to require a postdoc. People simply choose to do a postdoc. People can also choose to do a postdoc after they have had the doctorate for a few years and worked in the field of expertise. Postdoc only means "after the doctorate" and does not mean that it (is required for the field and) has to occur immediately after completing the doctorate.

**If you are talking about required clinical, licensing, certificate, or field experience that are a part of the doctorate degree, that is not the same thing as a postdoc. A postdoc is after the degree has been conferred.

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by Titchou

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me.

True. People get second chances in medical school. They don't flunk out immediately in most places because the selection process is designed that way. However, people do flunk out. You do not get unlimited chances to repeat. You can't just keep taking Step 1 or Step 2 until you pass it.

Originally Posted by Titchou

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

I totally agree with you. A PhD ("hard" science or not) is an accomplishment and all of the programs are difficult. It's just a different kind of difficult. No better or worse.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me

I understand exactly what you said, no parsing necessary. I just think it's laughable that someone with zero personal knowledge of or experience with medical school -- just hearsay from an ex-husband and other faculty at two of the 100+ medical schools in the country -- would tell people who have been to medical school:

Originally Posted by Titchou

Oh come on. . . . There is no way to flunk out of med school. . . . they spoon feed you.

Why do you care anyway?

[Kappamd]

What happened to the nice, supportive medical school thread?

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Why do you care anyway?

Because they call that guy/gal "Doctor" when he/she finally graduates

[als463]

Originally Posted by Titchou

All I can do is state my experience. My husband taught under these conditions. I heard numerous conversations at department and school events between the deans and chairs about these very issues at their schools and with comparisions to others. They were very open in those circles about it. Am sure the students would have been shocked as I was at first. But is seemed to be pretty pervasive to me!

Normally I try to stay out of these discussions as I am in no way affiliated with a medical school; however, your statement "my husband" is what I am betting most likely gets under the skin of others. Who knows-maybe not. This "my husband" statement is my complaint when, as someone who served in the military, I would have military wives try to tell me what was what because "my husband" blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. Please don't do that. It is annoying when people try to make statements based on what their spouse did or said. That is all I wanted to add to this discussion.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Because they call that guy/gal "Doctor" when he/she finally graduates

Yes, but they don't graduate without passing pretty rigorous exams, then they have internships and residencies, some of which last considerably longer than medical school itself, and have to pass boards. Your disdain for how you think medical schools are run -- based on second-hand information about what constitutes <2% of the medical schools in the country -- is a massive emphasis on form over substance.

[Titchou]

No, actually once you graduate you can call yourself "doctor". And you don't have to do any residencies to set up shop. You do have to pass state boards but all states are not created equal. You just won't be "board certified" in a specialty. Why do you think we have so many crumby doctors out there? And so many law suits. How many doctors that you go to have you checked out their CV? Where they went to med school? how does that school rate in that specialty? Where they did their residency and any fellowships? Are those good ones? Have you check with the state medical board about his license? Law suits? Reprimands? I promise you that I have not gone to a doctor in many decades that I didn't check out from stem to stern first - based on what I learned from my ex and the people I met. Some of it would make your hair curl.

And when I say it is "my experience" I don't know how to better qualify it. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. They may differ but they are both still valid. Let me put it this way. My BIL is an endodontist. They live out of state but are easy to get to. I needed a root canal but they were on vacation. I called and asked if he knew any endos still in practice here. He didn't but one of his classmates was the chair of endo at the local dental school where BIL went. Said to call him and tell him who I was. I did. Told him the two endos my dentist suggested. He said "Doctor X will do you a good job." That told me all I needed to know. You have to check these folks out.

And this is all I have to say on the topic....

[Kappamd]

We do, in fact, have to pass boards between our second and third years of medical school, and again once we graduate. National exams, so yes, they are created equal.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Titchou

No, actually once you graduate you can call yourself "doctor".

Hate to have to parse my words for you, but I didn't say otherwise. In fact, I said "yes." Calling yourself "doctor" by virtue of a degree and being licensed to practice medicine are two separate and distinct things, at least where I live.

Of course there are bad doctors out there. Lots of them went to med school decades ago, when they took attendance in class and didn't have transcripts of lectures. You're drawing a cause-and-effect connection that may or may not be valid.

And when I say it is "my experience" I don't know how to better qualify it. Your experience is yours and mine is mine. They may differ but they are still valid.

The problem is two-fold: Your initial comments were not limited to your experience; they were comments about medical schools generally. And your statements weren't based on your experience. They were based on what others told you about their experiences, which might or might not have been objective perspectives and which might or might not have been limited to their specific situations.

My brother is a doctor. My nephew (his son) is in med school. I've had quite a few conversations with both of them about how my nephew's med school experience (at a "top" school, for whatever that's worth) is different from my brother's (at a different "top" school), including in how classes are conducted. FWIW, my brother seems to think that most of the differences are positive and probably result in better trained doctors. Still, that doesn't put me in a position to offer any credible opinion based on my own knowledge of the state of medical school education in the country. I have no experience with medical schools. The experiences of others, even those in my family, aren't my experiences.

[AOII Angel]

Honestly, sitting in class and being lectured to does not a good doctor make. There are so many facets to a good doctor, and a PhD, not being a doctor, wouldn't know what it would take to be a good doctor. I would trust them to tell me whether or not the student mastered the subject matter. When I stated that some PhDs are jealous, I did say SOME...and I stand by that statement. Yes. It takes a long time to get a PhD, but is frequently easier to get into a program and much less lucrative which leads to sour grapes for SOME. In all professions you will have the good and the bad, but you can't chalk it up to attendance at school lectures. My husband is probably one of the best pediatric endocrinologists you'll find. He's gifted...probably because he was a child prodigy, but I digress. He skipped nearly the half a semester of second year after his parents split up and decided not to drop out of school at the last minute. I also know plenty of physicians that never missed a class but can't put the didactics and clinical aspects together. Medicine is as much an art as it is a science. The challenge is to take the knowledge gained the first two years and being able to apply it in clinical practice. It's very common to see the class rank reverse in the second two years of school. What you think you know about medical school and doctors could fill a thimble. Very few doctors go out and practice without completing residencies...nowadays, few will practice without doing fellowships. Yes, an intern can call himself Doctor, but after going to school for 8 years post high school, I think he deserves it! (Dr.Phil I use he in the neutral sense.)

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Titchou

You know, it tough when you have to parse your own writing to others because they don't read exactly what you said. I said the professors were told to not take roll. It was assumed since they all got the transcripts that they were "present." As for flunking out, that means not being able to come back. Every example all of you gave were of people who were allowed to come back or repeat. That is not "flunking out" to me.

As for a jealous PhD, most of the hard science related PhDs take just as long to get - or sometimes longer, than completing medical school. They also have to do a post doc which is similar to residency. It ain't all that easy.

Um...I specifically said that 10% of my class failed out in the 1st year. We started with 100 but only graduated with 88, and that includes the 5 people that did not start in my class. That's a LOT of people that flunked out. They didn't get to come back. I also know people who don't get to practice AFTER graduating medical school because they never passed USMLE Steps II or III. It happens ALL. THE. TIME. BTW, repeating a year of medical school is a pretty big deal, too. At my cheapo state school, I had to take out $20,000 in loans each year I was in school. If I flunked out a year and had to repeat, I don't consider a $20,000 mistake "no big deal", and neither did the people I knew in school that were in that situation.