Abortion Tour?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by irishpipes
You said it!

Too many possibilities to pretend to be psychic or to try to completely outlaw abortion.

[Xylochick216]

Originally posted by AlphaFrog
Now that's not true. What happens if a woman aborts her baby who would have grown up and discovered a cure for cancer??? or AIDS??

What if the baby you're not allowed to abort is the next Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or Hitler? It's all speculation. We can't predict the future.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Xylochick216
What if the baby you're not allowed to abort is the next Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or Hitler? It's all speculation. We can't predict the future.

So you are saying then that abortion does affect others and that your initial point is invalid?

-Rudey

[Xylochick216]

Originally posted by amanda6035
what basis gives a woman the right to kill another life?

If you believe this, then do you believe we should punish all people those who kill others? Executioners, people who kill in self defense... after all, as you said earlier, killing IS killing.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Xylochick216
If you believe this, then do you believe we should punish all people those who kill others? Executioners, people who kill in self defense... after all, as you said earlier, killing IS killing.

Kill, die, and murder are 3 different words with 3 different meanings.

-Rudey

[irishpipes]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Not true.

The middle ground with social issues generally lies with increased government intervention and regulation. This is how things such as gun ownership can remain legal but who qualifies for gun ownership is limited and closely monitored. Until the black market increases.

There are numerous arguments for pro-life and pro-choice and to be pro something doesn't mean you agree with every argument related to your side. You will never be able to make everyone happy. However, a middleground will be able to appease a significant percentage of people who are pro-life and pro-choice. Then people can fight it out over liberal/increased gov't involvement versus conservative/decreased gov't involvement and not the actual issue of abortion. It's a neverending battle.

I understand that to you the fetus is the blob of cells, so appeasement and compromise may be acceptable. I am not making progress in getting you to understand that to many pro-life people, the fetus is a person and allowing it to be killed will never be acceptable. It is unthinkable to allow some abortions. It is not the same as allowing some gun control. I completely agree that not everyone on either side is in total agreement with each other (which I think I also expressed in a previous post).

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by irishpipes
I understand that to you the fetus is the blob of cells, so appeasement and compromise may be acceptable. I am not making progress in getting you to understand that to many pro-life people, the fetus is a person and allowing it to be killed will never be acceptable. It is unthinkable to allow some abortions. It is not the same as allowing some gun control. I completely agree that not everyone on either side is in total agreement with each other (which I think I also expressed in a previous post).

It is also a blob of cells to some pro-lifers. Some people are pro-life only because they believe abortion negatively impacts the physical and mental of the woman. I understand the different reasons for being pro-life and pro-choice. This thread is not my introduction to these issues so don't think you are trying to get me to understand anything.

Whether a middle ground appeases every pro-lifer or every pro-choicer is not something that the government should be concerned with. The point is that there IS a middle ground on the legal-illegal spectrum.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by amanda6035
Who said the beliefs had to be religious just because it was pro-life?

Let's see...irishpipes said:

Well, I believe that human beings are human from the moment of conception. They have souls and are made in the image and likeness of God.

The belief that a fetus has a soul and is made in the image and likeness of God is religious. Would you like to argue that it is not?

Besides, answer your own question - what basis gives a woman the right to kill another life? Yeah, I believe its another life. you may not, but thats besides the point. Can you answer your own question from your point of view or no????

Okay champ, there is this thing called the Constitution, and there is also case law interpreting the Constitution. Let's assume that the fetus is "another life" as you call it. A woman carrying said fetus wants to abort it. The fetus, if it could, wants to stay alive and be born. Are you with me so far?

The law balances the interests of the woman ("I want to abort!") against the interests of the fetus ("I want to live!"). Currently, women in this country have a right to choose, based on existing case law and the constitutional right to privacy, and the interests of the fetus must be balanced against that right; when the competing interests are balanced, sometimes the woman prevails and sometimes the fetus does. This right to choose under existing law is the basis for giving women, as you call it, the "right to kill another life."

You seem to be saying that in all cases, the fetus should win, but you haven't provided a reason why this should be. Can you provide anything other than "it's another life" or is that the end of your argument?

[irishpipes]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
It is also a blob of cells to some pro-lifers. Some people are pro-life only because they believe abortion negatively impacts the physical and mental of the woman.

Which is why, in my post, I referred to "many" pro-lifers and not "all" pro-lifers.

I understand the different reasons for being pro-life and pro-choice. This thread is not my introduction to these issues so don't think you are trying to get me to understand anything.

It is apparent that you are exremely familiar with the topic, and you are right, I should not have undertaken to get you to understand anything.

Whether a middle ground appeases every pro-lifer or every pro-choicer is not something that the government should be concerned with. The point is that there IS a middle ground on the legal-illegal spectrum.

I don't see the middle ground. Abortion is legal. What exactly did your side give in that middle ground?

[amanda6035]

Originally posted by Xylochick216
If you believe this, then do you believe we should punish all people those who kill others? Executioners, people who kill in self defense... after all, as you said earlier, killing IS killing.

Wow, talk about taking shit out of context. You know good and well thats not what I meant. You know that I was refering to pregnant women and the child inside of her.

When a person comes at you with a gun or a knife or is going to beat the hell out of you - protect yourself.

Executioners have the coolest job - Kill those sick b*stards who comitted evil crimes.

yes, i'm ALL ABOUT the death penalty - when it's warranted.

but...that unborn child did not commit a crime.

I just had to erase a whole paragraph I had written, because this thread was about to be hijacked about the death penalty. We'll save that argument for elsewhere.

[IIOA]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
I see you really didn't read for comprehension. So, here goes.

It doesn't matter whether you see something to LOL about. I already stated what I was LOLing about and it wasn't abortion. If that keeps you up at night, fine.

Your perception is erroneous. I'm aware that you weren't laughing about abortion itself, but you were LOLing about the abortion discussion itself. I see no separation between LOLing at abortion versus LOLing at an abortion discussion.
For example, if abortion was not such a serious topic I might be amused by such an equivocation. But it isn't, so I'm not.

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS If you don't think light has been shed on this topic, that's your business. Other people have probably read this thread and learned something new about other people's stances and abortion, in general.

You have a wonderful grasp of the obvious. Of course my own personal opinion on abortion has been shared. So what? What did that accomplish in the big picture, aside from stimulating the snippy little conversation we're now engaged in?

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
You don't have to announce that you gracefully disagree for things to not turn ugly. It's pretty clear when people stop posting to each other that the discussion has ended. Let's try it. [/B]

I didn't announce that I gracefully disagree. In fact, those who know me are painfully aware that I'm not very good at gracefully disagreeing with anyone.

Oh, well.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by irishpipes
What exactly did your side give in that middle ground?

Abortion is currently not a free-for-all anyway, however everyone who wants to get an abortion may not be eligible for one if additional government restrictions are in place. This will not have a deterrent effect but it will increase the hurdles that men and women have to jump. More bureaucracy and red tape will piss enough people off.

[wrigley]

Originally posted by AlphaFrog
To those who support abortion - Would it have been ok for your mom to have an abortion?? Do you like the fact that your mother had the choice to kill you before you were born? Can you honestly say that thinking about your mom having an abortion instead of having you doesn't affect you at all??

There have been numerous stories recently about babies being abandoned by their birth mothers. One was found outside in FREEZING temperatures wrapped just a old bathrobe left to die had it not been discovered by a passerby. Another woman had enough sense to leave her twins ,a boy and a girl, in a church. However another baby was not so lucky and was found dead in a dumpster.

How do you think the kids will feel when they found out that they weren't wanted by their birth mothers or fathers? Do you think they are going to grow up and not be scarred by that?

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by AlphaFrog
To those who support abortion - Would it have been ok for your mom to have an abortion?? Do you like the fact that your mother had the choice to kill you before you were born? Can you honestly say that thinking about your mom having an abortion instead of having you doesn't affect you at all??

Since this point was brought up...okay, I'll bite.

My mom thought about aborting me. She was 40 when she found out she was pregnant with me. Back then, it was unheard of for a woman over 40 to give birth. She was told there was a greater chance I wouldn't be healthy, would be born w/ birth defects, etc. She chose to have me.

Growing up, my mother and I had a terrible relationship. We had terrible fights. I truly hated her. She once told me in the heat of an argument that she wished she had aborted me. It didn't bother me in the least; I know my mom is a deeply religious and conservative woman, and it was just something she had thrown back to in order to try to push my buttons.

Abortion seems to have become a buzz word people throw around to try to rile emotions.

I think that each and every one of us is lucky to be here. Think about it -- people try to have babies all the time and can't. Having sex doesn't guarantee pregnancy. Every time a mother conceives it's by luck, wouldn't you say?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by IIOA
Your perception is erroneous. I'm aware that you weren't laughing about abortion itself, but you were LOLing about the abortion discussion itself. I see no separation between LOLing at abortion versus LOLing at an abortion discussion.
For example, if abortion was not such a serious topic I might be amused by such an equivocation. But it isn't, so I'm not.


You have a wonderful grasp of the obvious. Of course my own personal opinion on abortion has been shared. So what? What did that accomplish in the big picture, aside from stimulating the snippy little conversation we're now engaged in?



I didn't announce that I gracefully disagree. In fact, those who know me are painfully aware that I'm not very good at gracefully disagreeing with anyone.

Oh, well.

What is your point at this point?

If you disagree with anything I've typed or didn't PERSONALLY get anything from this thread, I suggest you get over it. Don't be so vain as to believe that what you drink should make me urinate.

Whenever you decide to shut up about this, just do so without announcing that you're about to do so. If you could do that for civilization's sake, that would be grrrrrrrreat.